Video - Honey vs Big Ears July 2011

[Honey]

We played a marathon 24 games. Here are the first 8. The rest will come soon once I have edited them.

Andy Wignall vs Robin Honey - 24 Games (1-8)

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Nice vid Honey. You did well taking 2 of the first 4 sets from someone ranked so far above you (not to mention some other close ones). 

[speedplay]

Quality video, quality game.

Some things that seems to set you apart;

Serve/receive, Biggy scores a lot of points from his serve, while he is able to open up, or keep the returns tight, against Honey's serve. Honey on the other side, struggled a lot to read Wiggy's serve and probably felt a little pressure when serving, due to Biggy's good returns, which cause him to miss a little to many serves.

Variation in play, Biggy seems to attack all over the table, while Honey seemed to be more predictable. Honey's fh opener seemed to always be a diagonal shot and while it was a good shot, it was predictable. Even the rocket fast attacks where often blocked back, most likely due to Biggy's ability to read the game, along with the predictability.

BH, Biggy seems to be almost as strong from both wings, even though he makes more mistakes from the bh, while Honey clearly have a much better fh then bh. This could also be because of the fitness, as Honey is more fit then Biggy which might allow him to run around and use his fh more often. How ever, when he did go for the bh shot, it was a low % shot.

Still a great clip and good quality from both players. Thanks for sharing, and keep them coming!

[blocknhope]

It is SO hard to compare with the players down here. We have all seen players we thought we could defeat, only for them to wipe the floor with us and conversely.......

BE you are all class, and to see you playing back from the table at your size tells me you were once very athletic.

Honey, my guess is that you lost 30 pts in that clip from not committing to the BH topspin. You were not able to overcome BE's chop and many balls did not make the net on the full. The swing on your BH topspin return of serve starts above the table putting putting precious little spin on the ball. Do some players hit that ROS flat? Excellent, well coached and dependable FH though. I suspect you are still improving.

Good luck to you both.

[Der Echte]

Watched the entire vid. First off, thanx for posting. Honey had energy and what looked like some nice float serves, even if many were long. Seemed to set him up for the FH to FH rallies he appeared to favor. Andy, I am still scratching my head at all the unforced errors and missed chances the first three games. Sure, Honey put you under some pressure, but... You seemed either not warmed up or not playing very seriously for your level those first three games. Yup, Honey likes the FH loop a lot, but don't we all?

[big ears]

Watched the entire vid. First off, thanx for posting. Honey had energy and what looked like some nice float serves, even if many were long. Seemed to set him up for the FH to FH rallies he appeared to favor. Andy, I am still scratching my head at all the unforced errors and missed chances the first three games. Sure, Honey put you under some pressure, but... You seemed either not warmed up or not playing very seriously for your level those first three games. Yup, Honey likes the FH loop a lot, but don't we all?

Well I don't know about Honey, but I've not had a match for about 2 months, so I'm not match tight at all, The unforced errors are a symptom of that, having said that I've not played Honey for about two yrs and and he surprised me, he now has some structure to his game, a powerful f/hand a some tighter serves, so he earned the games he won. It will be interesting to see where the Vic lads would put Honey in the Vic rankings and which division he would be in.

[JT]

It's hard to say mate, since he's playing someone much higher level. But I'm going to take a punt and say the lower (bottom) end of Division 2, which would be around 200th in Vic and around 400-500th in AU

[big ears]

It's hard to say mate, since he's playing someone much higher level. But I'm going to take a punt and say the lower (bottom) end of Division 2, which would be around 200th in Vic and around 400-500th in AU

 i think you have arrived at that conclusion based on Honey's English ranking, rather than actually comparing his standard to the guy ranked 14 in Vic.
Honey played more quality strokes in the first 2 minutes than I have ever seen from Rob, and Rob is top 60, so how could you possibly put Honey at around 200 Vic? you really, honestly have guys ranked down there who can counter loop like that? I doubt it mate, but you can prove me wrong, its easy, just post a clip of a Vic 200 ranked player playing a match.

2011 NZ Vet Open Champ, O60 Final, Mick Wright (Vic/Aus) vs Thomas Samuelson (Qld), 1st Set

(The video's owner prevents external embedding)

I know Rob Has improved, but he was still Vic top 100 when he made this clip, where he can hardly string two shots together. Watch Honey again, then watch Rob, and honestly tell why if Rob is about 80 in Vic when he made this, You can possibly put Honey at 200.

Brian and Rob

[speedplay]

It's hard to say mate, since he's playing someone much higher level. But I'm going to take a punt and say the lower (bottom) end of Division 2, which would be around 200th in Vic and around 400-500th in AU

Would be interesting to know what parts of the game you base this on?

From what I can tell, he would be at least top 100 in Vic and probably top 50 (could be even better) as well. He did hold his own, didn't resort to passive blocking or fishing but counterlooped pretty much all the time. Good foot work and rarely caught out of position, unless Biggy actually fooled him completely with the placement, but that don't come down to foot work, that comes down to reading the game which is really hard against a player who uses great variation.

So, Biggy, what do you make of my short analyze, have I summed it up some what correct, or have I missed some thing? Also curious, do you get as many "easy" points on your serve against opponents of your own level, or is Honey particulary vulnerable to your serves?

[big ears]

Your analysis is good Speedy, I get better quality service returns the higher I play, but in general I can if needed keep players of international standard 'out' with my serves ( they can't attack them) but its harder to read where they are going directionally. Honey has everything in place, but he does not read the game as well as a UK top 100 player, and certainly is not as good at closing the game out, which, back to your original point, is when the service/follow up/return really matters, anyone can let their arm swing and gamble at the start of a game, its what happens at the other end that sorts the men out from the boys.

[JT]

I'm not comparing him to some sneaky old Vet. I'm comparing him to 14-40 year old type players that play division 2. I don't know if you realise it but the vets, especially the older ones often only play other vets and with the way the rating system works, if you keep doing that for 20 years you can end up with almost unlimited amounts of points and a very high ranking. In that case it's not a true indicator of the standard of the player.

If you can get 1000 Vic points playing normal pennant and tournaments you are certainly at the "made it" US 2000 level ie a very good club player in almost any area in the state. Division 2 starts at 1100 points, I know a guy on 1150 points who demolishes me pretty easy and I would say would beat Honey most of the time and that's the bottom end of Division 2. That's still a good player and there's never been for example a player that good in my small city ever....

When you see some Vets ranked very high in Vic like that just remember there are tons of guys outside the top 200 that are actually stronger players but the two groups don't mix and I would never rate someone against a Vets ranking but against a normal player that plays everything and everyone.

It's a little hard to explain how it all works to an outsider that doesn't know the system. Rob actually made a post a few days or weeks ago about this player you mention trying to explain that he doesn't expose himself to O40 opens so they have never played and probably never will but you wouldn't have noticed what he was trying to say. Anyway for normal people of a normal age in a normal place.... Division 2 for sure. You guys are always welcome to come and play a few tournaments and see for yourself where you would be rather than speculate alllllllll the time. I don't know why it's so interesting when clearly there's no difference between an Englishman in England and an Englishman in Australia other than the one living in England maybe showing some slight signs of jealously about not making it onto the ships to the promised land :p. I know I have never wondered for even one second what my ranking would be in England or Costa Rica or Antarctica so I don't know what the fascination is?

[speedplay]

So, basically, you are saying that Rob is rated where he is because he earns cheap points in the veteran events? So, we shouldn't compare Honey to Rob, but look at younger players with a "worse" ranking then Rob, as they are better?

Can't wait to hear what Rob have to say about this.

If I was to put money on a match between Rob and Honey, my money would be put on Honey, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

[JT]

No I'm not saying that at all since Rob doesn't only play Vets, he often takes points hits playing younger kids or people from outside his normal area. Some guys ONLY play their age division in opens and nothing else ever.

[pingpongrob]

So, basically, you are saying that Rob is rated where he is because he earns cheap points in the veteran events? So, we shouldn't compare Honey to Rob, but look at younger players with a "worse" ranking then Rob, as they are better?

Can't wait to hear what Rob have to say about this.

If I was to put money on a match between Rob and Honey, my money would be put on Honey, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

No offense Honey, I tried to stay out of this one so as I wouldnt offend you,  Speedplay you just lost your house.  You can come and live with me now, I'll even teach you how to play better than an Advanced Noob.  The Clip proved even more that BE is no match for me, he just makes to many unforced errors, and even pushes a long ball of the forhand side.

Gee do you think BE would fool us with his serves, maybe the lack of time cause he's away from the table, maybe most of the Blockish return - what is the quality that you see, I see this type of play everyday - all my peer's, I'd go as far as saying that BE would also not thrash JT or BlueSmartie, and I'd even stretch to say that Supachop could beat BE without even having to chop 1 ball.

[speedplay]

No I'm not saying that at all since Rob doesn't only play Vets, he often takes points hits playing younger kids or people from outside his normal area. Some guys ONLY play their age division in opens and nothing else ever.

But, Biggy asked you how you could rate Honey as low as 200, when a player like Rob was ranked ~80 in the clip. Your answer was that a lot of players earned a high ranking due to only playing veteran events. Yet, it don't apply to Rob? So, then how to explain Honey's guesstimated ranking of 200, when the quality in this clip is so much better then the clip with Rob?

Rob, you have finally proven once and for all that you aren't an advanced noob. You are just a plain noob and you clearly lacks understanding for the game of table tennis. Don't worry, keep on enjoying the game, we can't all become pro's. To even hint of the possibility that you would threat Biggy in a match shows that you don't have a clue. Almost as funny as when you tried to tell me the a LP rubber alwyas reversed the incoming spin

[pingpongrob]

But, Biggy asked you how you could rate Honey as low as 200, when a player like Rob was ranked ~80 in the clip. Your answer was that a lot of players earned a high ranking due to only playing veteran events. Yet, it don't apply to Rob? So, then how to explain Honey's guesstimated ranking of 200, when the quality in this clip is so much better then the clip with Rob?

Rob, you have finally proven once and for all that you aren't an advanced noob. You are just a plain noob and you clearly lacks understanding for the game of table tennis. Don't worry, keep on enjoying the game, we can't all become pro's. To even hint of the possibility that you would threat Biggy in a match shows that you don't have a clue. Almost as funny as when you tried to tell me the a LP rubber alwyas reversed the incoming spin

Thanks I'll take your comments on board - As always super accurate - not.

[JT]

Speedplay, If you want to see how it is then come for a holiday, Victoria has lots of things to see, it's twice the size of England on it's own, has Desert areas.. Ancient temperate Rainforest areas, Alpine regions and the south coast is exposed to the Southern Ocean so you can see all that as well as the chance to blitz all the local table tennis players apparently ;0. You could even go play some people in the other states.

[big ears]

Speedplay, If you want to see how it is then come for a holiday, Victoria has lots of things to see, it's twice the size of England on it's own,

It may be twice the size, but it has a fraction of the population, Vic population = 5.128 Million , Population of England = 60.5million, so seeing as you have approx one 12th of our population, but consider yourselves to be on a par ranking wise, your standard is extremely strong.  I'm afraid that you just don't get it do you.

[pingpongrob]

It may be twice the size, but it has a fraction of the population, Vic population = 5.128 Million , Population of England = 60.5million, so seeing as you have approx one 12th of our population, but consider yourselves to be on a par ranking wise, your standard is extremely strong.  I'm afraid that you just don't get it do you.

See what your saying is that the more population you have the higher the standard can go.  I can see your reasoning, but it dont always work that way, and in this case Im afraid from previous examples that have come over to Australia (I mean English Veterans), they have not been able to match our best.

lets just agree to differ on this matter and get on with the important stuff.

[big ears]

See what your saying is that the more population you have the higher the standard can go.  I can see your reasoning, but it dont always work that way, and in this case Im afraid from previous examples that have come over to Australia (I mean English Veterans), they have not been able to match our best.

lets just agree to differ on this matter and get on with the important stuff.

 You mean one English veteran, namely Abdul, who lost only once to Paul Pinkewitch a totally world class player in his day, and I know he loses rarely to other Aus vets. BTW, I was at a tournament where Abdul beat Alan Cooke, commonwealth champion. So who are the other 'examples' ?

[Honey]

No offense Honey, I tried to stay out of this one so as I wouldnt offend you,  Speedplay you just lost your house.  You can come and live with me now, I'll even teach you how to play better than an Advanced Noob.  The Clip proved even more that BE is no match for me, he just makes to many unforced errors, and even pushes a long ball of the forhand side.

Gee do you think BE would fool us with his serves, maybe the lack of time cause he's away from the table, maybe most of the Blockish return - what is the quality that you see, I see this type of play everyday - all my peer's, I'd go as far as saying that BE would also not thrash JT or BlueSmartie, and I'd even stretch to say that Supachop could beat BE without even having to chop 1 ball.

No worries Rob. Say what you like about my TT, I'd never get offended over any of it, as long as its strictly TT!  Its one of my aims to go to Australia someday, and I'd love to visit you and have a knock if the offer is still open whenever I can actually afford it.

As per my own opinion on the videos. If you compare the video of Brian and Rob to Me and Big Ears, I don't see how anyone could put Rob above me. I rarely big up myself, but I think the videos are different leagues. Thats my opinion and I stand by it, I'm not saying I'm a better player than Rob, I'm simply stating opinion on the two videos presented.

Rob is obviously a good player, and I feel he gets abit of stick on this forum, but most of you are obviously mates and sometimes its hard to tell if its just 'banter' (as we call it in England!). However there is alot of sacrasm going on and mind games and to be honest thats exactly what stopped me posting here a while ago when I had a little fling here.

Rob I find you hard to read, whether you're being truthful, trying to create discussion/argument or just plain sarcastic. I'm sorry about this. Personally, I can understand how you can percieve to be above me in level, because I'm sure we could have a fun game, but when you talk about Big Ears saying he'd be no match for you, if you're being truthful here then quite frankly I'm lost for words! Are you honestly saying that you could come over here and be ranked around the top 80 in the whole country?

I think too often we perceive better players to be able to 'thrash' us and if we think we can score a few points we think that we are on a similar level. Thats not the case, they are only human, they won't thrash us, but they will beat us every time in a match. 99/100.

Would anyone like to guess over the whole 24 games, what % of points I scored? We played 400-500 ish points, I've forgotton the exact no.

[big ears]

I think too often we perceive better players to be able to 'thrash' us and if we think we can score a few points we think that we are on a similar level. Thats not the case, they are only human, they won't thrash us, but they will beat us every time in a match. 99/100.

 This is so true, if the opponent someone that you are going to beat anyway, who cares how many points they get, I don't, its when they are truly a threat that its best to put them to bed as early as possible. I've always hated the term ''I took a game off him'' when a player is referring to how they did against a superior player, what usually happened is that they 'took' nothing, the opponent relaxed and they got lucky, then stepped up the next game to beat them comfortably, the bit they always forget to tell you.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Honey, I really hope you do come to Aus one day. Be great to meet you and have a knock. It really is the only way to determine how player v player comes out in the washup. Rob has taken a lot of stick from Biggie (and Speedplay) in this soap opera discussion of levels, so putting in some sarcasm and self pump-up is warranted IMO. Looking at the vid I was surprised how many unforced errors Biggy made (especially at the start), so I can see why Rob would be prepared to say Biggy is no match for him. Biggy saying he hasn't had a match in 2 months goes some way to explain the rust. And in reality I would say that Rob and Biggy would be a match for each other (both verbally and in TT LOL). While it has never been said Biggy is not a quality player, there has been evidence in his vids that he has weaknesses (as most players do). It comes down to how well one player vs another can exploit those weaknesses and cover their own. This is why so often we get the old situation where A beats B beats C, but A can't beat C. So its all speculation until it actually gets tested.

Anyway, your game seems to have come along well since the last vid we saw of you. Keep up the good work and your DTE attitude!

Biggy, while I agree that taking a set or 2 off someone certainly doesn't make you better than them, it does mean you found a way to be competitive at least for a while. You might like to see it as "separating the men from the boys" to win out in the end (which is a classist sort of statement), I'd rather see it as there being something accomplished by the underdog, in that they were not completely wiped away.

I often have a hit with a guy (usually once a week) who is probably a similar difference between Honey's standard in comparison to your standard, to me. He plays in my club's B2 comp (the one I was in when you last saw vid of me), and I think you know I am in A4 now. I win around the 95/100 games against him. He benefits from playing me to test out and strengthen up his shots and when he takes a game he is chuffed. I get to practice some of the shots players of my level don't give me as much opportunity to play when we practice. Often when I drop a set, its because I have missed a few risky shots I'm trying in a row, other times its just as you say I relax after having won 10 or 15 games in a row. So I know where you are coming from, but at the same time I have no problem with the "I took a game off them" term, either up or down from my level.

[pingpongrob]

This is so true, if the opponent someone that you are going to beat anyway, who cares how many points they get, I don't, its when they are truly a threat that its best to put them to bed as early as possible. I've always hated the term ''I took a game off him'' when a player is referring to how they did against a superior player, what usually happened is that they 'took' nothing, the opponent relaxed and they got lucky, then stepped up the next game to beat them comfortably, the bit they always forget to tell you.

This is not always the case, Look at Supachop Versus BB - do we say that BB relaxes when he play him.
Dont always look at thing from only your so called superior perspective.

[pingpongrob]

No worries Rob. Say what you like about my TT, I'd never get offended over any of it, as long as its strictly TT!  Its one of my aims to go to Australia someday, and I'd love to visit you and have a knock if the offer is still open whenever I can actually afford it.

As per my own opinion on the videos. If you compare the video of Brian and Rob to Me and Big Ears, I don't see how anyone could put Rob above me. I rarely big up myself, but I think the videos are different leagues. Thats my opinion and I stand by it, I'm not saying I'm a better player than Rob, I'm simply stating opinion on the two videos presented.

Rob is obviously a good player, and I feel he gets abit of stick on this forum, but most of you are obviously mates and sometimes its hard to tell if its just 'banter' (as we call it in England!). However there is alot of sacrasm going on and mind games and to be honest thats exactly what stopped me posting here a while ago when I had a little fling here.

Rob I find you hard to read, whether you're being truthful, trying to create discussion/argument or just plain sarcastic. I'm sorry about this. Personally, I can understand how you can percieve to be above me in level, because I'm sure we could have a fun game, but when you talk about Big Ears saying he'd be no match for you, if you're being truthful here then quite frankly I'm lost for words! Are you honestly saying that you could come over here and be ranked around the top 80 in the whole country?

I think too often we perceive better players to be able to 'thrash' us and if we think we can score a few points we think that we are on a similar level. Thats not the case, they are only human, they won't thrash us, but they will beat us every time in a match. 99/100.

Would anyone like to guess over the whole 24 games, what % of points I scored? We played 400-500 ish points, I've forgotton the exact no.

I gad you came back, and Im glad your not offended. Now Honey what makes you think that you can compare a 2 year old video of me playing BB, to your fresh of the bus video of you playing BE.
Brian is one awkward fish to play, nothing like BE's style.  Just like youve improved over time dont you think that maybe I've also improved. I beat players that once used to beat me easily, and under my terms these days, whereas before I would scrounge for points - get them any way I could.
Also BE seem to think he would be Top Ten in Australian Vets, whereas we (the concesus that have watched his clips over time) think he'd be lucky to be Top Ten in Vic, of course thats a bit of an exageration, as he's probably somewhere around there - very hard to place him.  He did look better against Greg Letts, but then again he did say he likes that sort of style and generally plays well against it. 

[pingpongrob]

You mean one English veteran, namely Abdul, who lost only once to Paul Pinkewitch a totally world class player in his day, and I know he loses rarely to other Aus vets. BTW, I was at a tournament where Abdul beat Alan Cooke, commonwealth champion. So who are the other 'examples' ?

You said it BE - In his day. Paul wasnt even ranked Top 10 Australian that year.  Im Sure Abdul would have had to play so many combo players to get to the No.1 vets spot in the UK, and since you claim that you have depth, he should have been so experienced against them. Yet Abdul crumbled. Dont tell me I dont know what I'm talking about, my 16 year old son was Abduls warm up man, so I got a good look at your strapping young super fit No.1 vet player.

[big ears]

You said it BE - In his day. Paul wasnt even ranked Top 10 Australian that year.  Im Sure Abdul would have had to play so many combo players to get to the No.1 vets spot in the UK, and since you claim that you have depth, he should have been so experienced against them. Yet Abdul crumbled. Dont tell me I dont know what I'm talking about, my 16 year old son was Abduls warm up man, so I got a good look at your strapping young super fit No.1 vet player.

 Actually, you are totally wrong, first of all did you mean Paul did not make the top 10 mens or vets? Coz i don't believe he would not be in the top 10 vets.


our ranking points in UK are split, the points for vets and men are different, BUT when you first become a vet, your points are carried over, Abdul was a new vet and got the bulk of his points in the Mens competitions. Whatever you want to try and say here, if you think Abdul would be anything less than a top 10 men player in Aus let alone vet, you are mad, especially if you've played him. Who else did he lose to whilst down there? thats the second time I've had to ask that question, and I know why you have not answered, because there isn't anyone else.
 Also, I've just looked, there is no combination/pip players in our top 10 vets, one between 10 and 20, and 3 between 20 and 50, that is because they tend to get eaten alive unless they are real class, the player that is 14 in Vic would just be eaten alive.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

, the player that is 14 in Vic would just be eaten alive.

Biggy, don't you realise you are being hypocritical? You made a statement about people speculating recently, and yet here you are speculating yourself (actually you do it quite a LOT). Of course we all speculate on what WOULD happen between any 2 players that haven't actually met. If we wish to make any comment on 2 players who have not played speculation is all it can ever be.

[pingpongrob]

You said it BE - In his day. Paul wasnt even ranked Top 10 Australian that year.  Im Sure Abdul would have had to play so many combo players to get to the No.1 vets spot in the UK, and since you claim that you have depth, he should have been so experienced against them. Yet Abdul crumbled. Dont tell me I dont know what I'm talking about, my 16 year old son was Abduls warm up man, so I got a good look at your strapping young super fit No.1 vet player.

Bigears you have not comentated about the bold statement in general.

[big ears]

Bigears you have not comentated about the bold statement in general.

 and you have not answered my question as to who else he lost to. he lost top one guy, who if he were resident in the UK would be ranked very highly in our vets, I presume that you beat P Pinkewitch all the time Rob.
Reb, would you say I was speculating if I said that I would lose to WLC ?