How to beat LP blockers!

[speedplay]

Now, this is a often asked question, especially amongst the lower level players. Now, I'm the first to admit that I've been given some stupid advices on this before

Actually, I've always had an easy time playing against LP blockers, but I've always though this have been due to my use of anti, as when ever I'm in doubt, I can use the anti. Also, the anti helps me to feed them no spin balls, which is a pretty common advice on how to play against them. Now, this is the advice I consider kind of stupid. Why?

Look at it this way, how does a LP play? Remember, most LP blockers use OX. And yes, the answer is, it plays with extremely little spin. Now, if you use a set of invered rubbers, who are made to create spin, then why on earth would you want to play a no spin game against some one who have rubbers that are designed for this??? Sure, if you don't have the strokes to play anything else, go ahead and give it a go.

If you do how ever have the strokes and the confidence in them, then why not use your rubbers the way they where designed for? Since you are the only one generating spin, you can pretty much determine what kind of spin you want in the rally and this is something you should us to your advantage. Controlled looping against their blocks will give you low amount of back spin all the time. Shouldn't be a problem to continue to loop against this. If they pop one block up high, hit throught it and celebrate the point. Should it come back, then start over. The main thing is, don't try to power through them with each stroke, but be patient and wait for the right ball, but don't get engaged in a low spin pushing rally with them.
 
I realised this today, when I got to play against one of the better LP blockers who can be found locally. He have played this style for more then 5 years, and he have beaten a Swedish first division player (about Biggy's standard, slightly lower) and have beaten some pretty good players. Well, today was the first time I got to play against him with a double inverted set up, that I use when I'm injured, as I can't step around, I can't move around, so I have to have a bh to work with as well.
 
I thought for sure I would get hammered, as we usually have some pretty hard battles when I play with my regular set up, and don't have to worry about my knee. Surprisingly enough, I was able to dominate him completely, with controlled looping from both wings, avoiding speed until I got the opprtunity to kill the ball. Won 3-1, and the set I lost was before I learned how to deal with his serves.
 
Now, he might not be a good as PB, but thismatch really had me thinking about how PB can beat such qualified players, when it's so easy to take away their weapons. If an advanced noob like me, used to using anti, can beat them with a knee injury and a double inverted set up, then any player with some solid strokes should be able to beat them pretty easy.
 
 
 
Brag moment: I read that Reb wonleading player, with a 77% winning, or something like that. Well, I also won leading player this year,my first time as well, but I was at 100%, so I'm clearly better then him. Closest player lost 7 matches, out of 32, so it was pretty evenly matched amongst the rest of them

[blue_smartie68]

Great post Speedplay.. this is great to see threads like this on the forum! Much more likely to get new posting members this way, than with forum fighting! 
I'm interested to see what others think about this...

[pingpongrob]

Speedplay, thanks for a wonderful post, I will take some of your advise in the future 
When you LP Blockers, do you mean 1 side LP Blockers or both sides.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

100% in your local league which you have admitted is very low standard! You showed a vid of your much stronger regional league when you were in Div 5 and the play was about our B grade standard. So no, I don't think this makes you better than me, but you may think what you like

As for your strategy on LP Blockers, I guess it depends on how the LP blocker plays. If they only block and nothing else, then it might work I guess. If they have good countering weapons on the FH, good BH and FH attack, a mix of serves and consistent low LP blocks and good angles, then I think you would have your work cut out. If they are a one dimensional blocker who pops the ball up a lot, then I guess thats a fair strategy, although you are always saying you don't have that much putaway power.

Now for the most important point in this thread.....what the hell are you doing playing TT against doctors orders???

[speedplay]

Rob, I'm talking about the single sides LP players, weho plays the same style as Pushblocker, using their l p to cover the entire table, 95% blocking.

Reb, sure if they have all that, then they are probably simply better players then me. But, if they do engage in inverted vs inverted rallies, then they no longer play the L P blocking game and should be dealt with as any other opponent. The thing about poping up a lot of balls, that's not really important, if you always know what to expect from them, even their usuall blocks are attackable. So, if they don't pop it up, wait for them to become really comfortable and then hammer away. It's not so much about having the speed as it's about element of surprice. Besides, since the ball coming back at you carries backspin, you don't need to worry about looping, open up the blade and whack the ball, even I can do that with good power and speed.

The key is, keep your loops deep and aim for their lp side. The reason you should aim for their lp side is, because this way you know they will use their lp . If you aim for their inverted side, there is always a risk of getting something unexpected back. It will also reduce a lot of their ability to use the angles against you. I also prefer to keep the loops slightly higher then normal, as these loops are harder to block low for the lp blockers.

Trying to avoid further forum fights here, but Reb, I think you failed miserably to determine the level from the video shown. But yes, the local league standard is low compared to the regional league standard, probably only slightly better then your top division at your club. The regional league is how ever much stronger.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Trying to avoid further forum fights here, but Reb, I think you failed miserably to determine the level from the video shown. But yes, the local league standard is low compared to the regional league standard, probably only slightly better then your top division at your club. The regional league is how ever much stronger.

Now I know you are reaching....no need for a fight...I won't fight a man who is so delusional that he can't see anything...mostly he can't see reality

I see you discovered a new Emoticon with your use of the L P term LOL. Pretty cool, cos LP really does mean Let's Party!!!

I hope you get well soon Speedplay mate...and I hope your knee heals soon too 

[speedplay]

LOL!

You are free to belive what ever you want Reb. But, you play league in a club, that is, ONE club, and you are in, what, third highest division or something like that? In that one club. Sorry, don't impress me.

L P to be used for an emoticon is really dumb on a TT related forum.

Back on topic, would like to hear what other, more experienced players thinks about this, Biggy, JKC and Supachop, what do you reckon? Do you agree, or how do you play to beat them?

[JKC]

LOL!

You are free to belive what ever you want Reb. But, you play league in a club, that is, ONE club, and you are in, what, third highest division or something like that? In that one club. Sorry, don't impress me.

L P to be used for an emoticon is really dumb on a TT related forum.

Back on topic, would like to hear what other, more experienced players thinks about this, Biggy, JKC and Supachop, what do you reckon? Do you agree, or how do you play to beat them?

My technique usually is to roll a ball to the pimples, then loop 2 or 3 and build up the spin then loop one to the reverse rubber which usually wins the point or gives me something to attack more strongly. I only push a ball if absolutely necessary - if the ball is going to double bounce and is spinning enough to make a flick difficult. Obviously things may change depending on the strengths of the opponents forehand. It doesn't bother me if I spend all night repeatedly looping to the LP if necessary, I can be just as consistent as the defender.
If you learn to read the spin from the flight of the ball, the bounce on the table and watching the ball for the spin, then it doesn't matter how that spin was imparted. If you want to push, then push, but know what to expect next and how to deal with it.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

LOL!

You are free to belive what ever you want Reb. But, you play league in a club, that is, ONE club, and you are in, what, third highest division or something like that? In that one club. Sorry, don't impress me.

Damn! I've failed at my one and only goal in life. Oh woe is me, what shall I do now?

[blue_smartie68]

Thanks JKC that's a great insight... appreciate your reply 
I'd be interested to see what Biggy has to say as well.

With my very limited experience at playing against pimples, I have learnt not to give them spinny serves to work with... but in the rallies, I seem to hit any aggressive shots long and then I lose confidence in going for them (Perhaps I'm expecting more backspin than what there is??)
So the game ends up a very boring and long winded pushing encounter... in which I can often snag games off them, but rarely win 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

You need to practice against me more Chris 

[speedplay]

Blue,

It sounds to me as you are awear of the problem, you are reading the ball wrong, assuming that there is more back spin then there is. This is a common mistake. If you do play against a LP blocker who don't attack, try to make your loop shorter, aim for the cnetre of the table instead of the deep end and see if this helps you land your loops better.

Pushing against them is actually a bit dangerous, cause this gives them the option to attack when ever they want.

[JKC]

Pushing is only a problem if you don't anticipate what will happen next. Most players push badly to these rubbers and give the pimple blocker too many options or they don't understand enough of what is going on and wonder why a second push (or a topspin following a push) flies long.

[Silver]

I've never played against an LP blocker of pb's standard, but in general my favourite tactic is to serve or push deep into their backhand corner with chop or float without side, then open up hard against the return to push them back from the table, then play softer.


Here's my reasoning:

1) Chop or float deep to the backhand. No sidespin.
- try and gain as predictable a ball as possible.
- Their return from chop is generally more predictable than float but the float could maybe keep them honest. Or at least work out the expected return.
- Deep into the backhand to try and get a long return, no real preference on where it comes back (l/r). Also to maybe (just maybe) open a space on their FH.

2) Strong attack off this.
- Push them back off the table. If I can get them off the table, their style (at least I believe so) is at a disadvantage. If they start chopping, that's fine with me.
- I try (emphasis on try) to test their sides. Four places, (a) wide to fh (b) elbow (c) straight into them (d) wide to backhand. See which one works best. Oddly enough I find some blockers block better at the elbow or mid-wide to their backhand than straight into their gut.
- Sometimes the strong attack doesn't work. Return ball is good enough where I can't attack strongly or maybe I'm just crap. See (4) for more detail.

3) Weak(er) followup attack
- I'm a looper. I usually follow up the first loop with another. Or at least try to.
- Weaker followups bring them forward again. There's nothing more annoying to be blasted backwards only to have the ball drop on you on the next shot. 90% of people will expect a strong follow up after the first one.
- True choppers tend to be really good at in-out footwork so this may be a bad idea. But after they are off you can start sidespinning if you're that way inclined.


4) What if I'm crap?
- Then you're probably going to lose.
- Spinning the crap out of the first one might work better than blasting it. It works against some better than others. I think it really depends on their skill level (or if they have dodgy pips).
- If you want to spin the first one, you might be better off doing a topspin serve (and getting chop back). More spin, you see.

Anyway that's my usual response to an LP blocker.
Sometimes it even works.
Pick it apart and tell me how bad an idea it is.

[big ears]

The real secret of playing LP's is to read the spin, and as JKC has pointed out, many players can't do that because they can't associate the spin coming off the LP's with their previous shot. You have to look at LP's differently, in simple terms, they don't really put spin on the ball, but they don't take it off either. The easiest method to learn this is to push long to LP's and attack the next ball with a relatively closed bat angle (like attacking a block) because there will be little or no backspin. However, if that attack comes back it will have an amount of chop directly related to how much topspin you but on your last shot.

[pingpongrob]

The real secret of playing LP's is to read the spin, and as JKC has pointed out, many players can't do that because they can't associate the spin coming off the LP's with their previous shot. You have to look at LP's differently, in simple terms, they don't really put spin on the ball, but they don't take it off either. The easiest method to learn this is to push long to LP's and attack the next ball with a relatively closed bat angle (like attacking a block) because there will be little or no backspin. However, if that attack comes back it will have an amount of chop directly related to how much topspin you but on your last shot.

tell that to supachop.

[JKC]

Superchop is in hiding. He is trying to avoid losing a friend when he breaks his silence about your actual level Rob.

[pingpongrob]

Superchop is in hiding. He is trying to avoid losing a friend when he breaks his silence about your actual level Rob.

HaHa Cold Humor, he is in silence cause he knows what he'd do to both of you if you ever met.
We play to often, and he knows that on a good night the sky's the limit.  Do you know the sky, you should as thats where your bat always points.

[big ears]

tell that to supachop.

 obviously where you are going wrong Rob, I don't care if its supachop, Mat Syed Paul Pinkwewitch, Chen Wexing or Joo see Hyuk, the same principle applies. Supachop's 'alien' abilities, stem from your inability to read his pimples.

[blue_smartie68]

Blue,

It sounds to me as you are awear of the problem, you are reading the ball wrong, assuming that there is more back spin then there is. This is a common mistake. If you do play against a LP blocker who don't attack, try to make your loop shorter, aim for the cnetre of the table instead of the deep end and see if this helps you land your loops better.

Pushing against them is actually a bit dangerous, cause this gives them the option to attack when ever they want.

Thanks for your advice Speedy... I'll give that a go next time and see how it goes 
I've used pushes to actually encourage them to attack... as at least I'm more comfortable going away from the table and returning smashes, and do seem to get myself into the game a bit. Certainly it's more fun than me trying to be aggressive and missing everything! 

Thanks also to JKC, Silver and big ears for further advice... I'll try and take it all on board! It will at least give me a few options to try next time the dreaded pimples come out at the other end of the table.
Oh... yes Reb... we need to have some more games! 

As for the last few posts... take it to the boxing ring boys!! I would like threads to stay on topic, at least for a page or two!

[pingpongrob]

obviously where you are going wrong Rob, I don't care if its supachop, Mat Syed Paul Pinkwewitch, Chen Wexing or Joo see Hyuk, the same principle applies. Supachop's 'alien' abilities, stem from your inability to read his pimples.

Yeah, so right once again - I have no idea, we have hardly any Vets playing with Pips down here, and you might be right, a pimple player cant take spin of a ball, and they cant put any extra on. Yeah right thats about the biggest load of inacurate information I have seen give by such an advanced player as yourself, bat angle, type of pip etc all play a part, I'll agree, that a light topspin will most likely come back as a light backspin, or even maybe even a floater, but the Keyword here is MIGHT. I could keep going, but I'll wait till I get your UK barage of insults before I reply with more accurate information.
BTY, if you can read pips so well, why did Greg Letts give you so much trouble, and also most of the Top Class Vets in Australia.

[speedplay]

Rob,

I'm not even going to scroll up to see this, I'm going to trust my memory here. WHat Biggy initally said was that if you push to the lp player, and he returns the facour with a push, you will get back something between a float or a light backspin push. Why? Cause since frictionless pips are no longer allowed, a push won't reverse the spin, so top spin isn't an option. Depending on what lp, sponge and how hard they push, you will get a float or a light backspin, cause lp's can not create a heavy back spin push against incoming back spin.

If you loop hard to them, they can chop down and give you plenty of back spin, or, they could feed you a float, even it that is hard to do, it is doable. What theyy can't do here is re-loop it with their pips.

[big ears]

BTY, if you can read pips so well, why did Greg Letts give you so much trouble,

  Because he's a good player? Just because a player can read pips, does not give him a right to win.

[Der Echte]

Rob,

I'm not even going to scroll up to see this, I'm going to trust my memory here. WHat Biggy initally said was that if you push to the player, and he returns the facour with a push, you will get back something between a float or a light backspin push. Why? Cause since frictionless pips are no longer allowed, a push won't reverse the spin, so top spin isn't an option. Depending on what , sponge and how hard they push, you will get a float or a light backspin, cause 's can not create a heavy back spin push against incoming back spin.

If you loop hard to them, they can chop down and give you plenty of back spin, or, they could feed you a float, even it that is hard to do, it is doable. What theyy can't do here is re-loop it with their pips.

What you describe on the push is right. Close to the table OX LP Korean players take that off the bounce slightly to moderately aggressive. That reduces the time available. You know pretty much what is on the ball, but the placement and lack of time make it a lower percentage shot to attack strongly as you are often not in optimal position to attack strong. The serve is hte best cance to setup attacks. I play a shot to the FH more often, but if I can make a light to medium topspin safely to the pips, I will do it, as I know the backspin, have a lot more time to prepare my position and attack, and can generally kill those bottomspin long balls with a higher degree of safety and higher percentage. Either way, a good OX LP player who can take everything off the bounce and control depth, pace, angle, and location can wreck havoc with timing and entice lower percentage shots. The ones playing these OX LP players who have a higher level is not a walk in the park. It takes thinking, shot execution and a plan. The ones who FH pulverize any loose balls 2 cm over net height are especially dangerous as you have to make your shots extra tight and high quality.

[big ears]

Yeah, so right once again - I have no idea, we have hardly any Vets playing with Pips down here, and you might be right, a pimple player cant take spin of a ball, and they cant put any extra on. Yeah right thats about the biggest load of inacurate information I have seen give by such an advanced player as yourself, bat angle, type of pip etc all play a part, I'll agree, that a light topspin will most likely come back as a light backspin, or even maybe even a floater, but the Keyword here is MIGHT. I could keep going, but I'll wait till I get your UK barage of insults before I reply with more accurate information.
BTY, if you can read pips so well, why did Greg Letts give you so much trouble, and also most of the Top Class Vets in Australia.

 Rob, this is your problem, really. You find an argument in this? I'm giving you solid Gold world renowned advice, I make part of my living out of this, people pay me to give this advice, They pay me because I offer advice that is seen to be a benefit to them, I have at this moment 22 students, who I coach weekly, but You seem to think I don't know what I'm talking about?

 Blue  has indicated that he wants this thread to be 'on track' all I'm doing is giving advice, that I know to be true, what else can I do? You might disagree with it, but really, in my personal experience of TT learning, you sometimes have to bite the bullet in order to learn.

[blue_smartie68]

Just to be clear... I have no issues with arguements on any thread, so long as it stays relative to the topic! 
Disagreements can actually bring out some very useful information 

[big ears]

I will if you wish ROB, give you a cyber coaching freebee, Its totally free to you, Its Free advice  but if you don't wish to take it up I will offer it to Blue or/and Reb, any takers? Free advice to members of Rob's forum.

 If you think I'm not qualified to give advice, then I have nothing to lose do I?

[pingpongrob]

Rob,

I'm not even going to scroll up to see this, I'm going to trust my memory here. WHat Biggy initally said was that if you push to the player, and he returns the facour with a push, you will get back something between a float or a light backspin push. Why? Cause since frictionless pips are no longer allowed, a push won't reverse the spin, so top spin isn't an option. Depending on what , sponge and how hard they push, you will get a float or a light backspin, cause 's can not create a heavy back spin push against incoming back spin.

If you loop hard to them, they can chop down and give you plenty of back spin, or, they could feed you a float, even it that is hard to do, it is doable. What theyy can't do here is re-loop it with their pips.

I agree with most of what you say here speedplay, and if Bigears is insync with these comments then I'l mostly agree, although Your last comment is not 100% correct. I have seen LP players re loop a topspin, its not that effective, it certainly doesnt have much topspin, but it does have topspin.  What throws my views on this subject of track is that the Bat angle and what the actual LP players does with it, its just to easy to say give light topspin, and light backspin comes back....

[pingpongrob]

I will if you wish ROB, give you a cyber coaching freebee, Its totally free to you, Its Free advice  but if you don't wish to take it up I will offer it to Blue or/and Reb, any takers? Free advice to members of Rob's forum.

 If you think I'm not qualified to give advice, then I have nothing to lose do I?

Thanks Big Ears for the Offer, Its very generous.

You stated in the previous post that Greg is a quality player (and we know this is fact), thats why he beats so many Aust Top players, Lets take this a little further. Your such a strong looper, and if it was as simple as sending over a slight backspin push, You would then recieve the ball you require - knowing the exact spin - i dont think so......The keyword being Exact.  The Better LP player know how to vary the spin.

[blue_smartie68]

I will if you wish ROB, give you a cyber coaching freebee, Its totally free to you, Its Free advice  but if you don't wish to take it up I will offer it to Blue or/and Reb, any takers? Free advice to members of Rob's forum.

 If you think I'm not qualified to give advice, then I have nothing to lose do I?

Any advice, assistance and/or valuable information would be most welcomed by me  Very kind of you Biggy