Should low level players practice against junk?

[speedplay]

Curious to what you think about this, seeing as most people agree that junk rubbers gives an advantage at the lower levels, partly because they are easier to use, but mostly due to the fact that they are rare, so "new" playersmight not have played against them at all.

So the question is, should they start practicing against junk rubbers right from the start?

My own answer is, no, as I think it would be a waste of time. Low level players have so many flaws in their own game to work on first. Then there are still plenty for them to learn about playing against other double inverted players, which is what they will face most of the time, before they start practicing against junk rubbers. Sure, this approach will give the junk players an advantage at the earlier stages, but I still think this is the best approach for any low level player looking to improve. They will have to accept the losses they might get against junk rubbers to begin with, because later on, when their game is more developed, they will catchy up with the junk rubber players.

What do you think about this?

[big ears]

I think the answer lies as to what the aspirations of the player are, where they see themselves playing the bulk of their TT. So for a budding international, who would have to be playing almost full time I would say there is no need, the amount of hours playing will ultimately take their game well past what is needed to compete with 'Junk' players, If they don't realise their dream and make the grades below international class, their accumilated standard will ensure that with little dedication, they can overcome any difficulties quickly.
For the serious, but more leisure orientated player, its a must, simply because there are so many players of this style at the sub international level. I have won Tournaments from a low seeded position because some younger fitter, better players,  than me were dumped out of the competition by 'junk' players who I've then beaten.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I don't think it can hurt to do so. It certainly exposes them to different methods of play and introduces them to the potential that they may wish to play with "material" rubbers themselves. It comes back to the players aims and reasons for playing. That will take in their age and stage of life, their personality and perspective on the sport and the influences on them from others (eg. coaches, mentors and fellow players).

[Der Echte]

Curious to what you think about this, seeing as most people agree that junk rubbers gives an advantage at the lower levels, partly because they are easier to use, but mostly due to the fact that they are rare, so "new" playersmight not have played against them at all.

So the question is, should they start practicing against junk rubbers right from the start?

My own answer is, no, as I think it would be a waste of time. Low level players have so many flaws in their own game to work on first. Then there are still plenty for them to learn about playing against other double inverted players, which is what they will face most of the time, before they start practicing against junk rubbers. Sure, this approach will give the junk players an advantage at the earlier stages, but I still think this is the best approach for any low level player looking to improve. They will have to accept the losses they might get against junk rubbers to begin with, because later on, when their game is more developed, they will catchy up with the junk rubber players.

What do you think about this?

First, I disagree with Speedplay. I say yes. Coping with LP or anti requires understanding of the rubber's properties, attention to impact dynamics, anticipation, movement, technique for more than one kind of spin, ability to predict the outcome of a shot, will to take initiative, vision or plan of what to do, reading and implementing tactics both with preparation and under time pressure, etc...

Those skills greatly resemble the same general things that ove has to learn when coping with inverted rubbers. Based on that, I do not see any issue telling a player how to cope and have him work on it. There is remarkable a lot of overlap than few acknowledge.

I agree in Speedpaly's conclusion that few, if any, beginning players sucessfully learn to implement much of this quickly and keep failing to various degrees.

I agree with B.E. in that at our amature levels, you will do battle against LP or Anti using players, so you have to learn how to cope, overcome, and win, or get booted from tourneys. That still applies to inverted. I myself, ocassionaly use an LP bat to remember firsthand how it works, so I am better equipped to deal with that equipment if my opponents use it.

[speedplay]

To clarigfy further, by low level players, I'm assuming guys at our own age (beginning to play at 30+= who are willing to spend 2-3 hours a week to play and practice. Ambition is to improve, but not to reach the world cup. Seeing how the majority of players use double inverted, I'm doubtful that it would benefit these players to spend their precious practice time to learn how to play against junk, since they will rarely run in to it.

My local league team mate used to blame me for his lack of improvment and back then, I though he was silly. But, the thing is, I was using junk rubbers and he learned how to deal with that very well and actually managed to beat me most of the time, but against other opponents, I would win while he would lose, because he was practicing against junk, but playing against inverted. Sure, he was playing way above his level when he was faced with junk players, but he didn't reach his potential against inverted players, hwich is what he faced the most.

As Biggy says, at the higher level's, I don't think you need to practice to much against junk, cause you will have the ability to read the game and understand what is going on. How ever, on the lower level's, you don't have this ability and you will most likely play your shots based on what you are used to, and by being used to play against junk, you won't cope well against inverted.

At the levels in between, there might be some value to practice against it, since you should have the ability to read the game and adjust your strokes accordingly, but still, if only 10% of your opponents are junk players, then how much time should you spend practicing against it? 10%? If so, you will most likely be worse against junk then against inverted, thus giving the junk player an advantage
 
I don'twant to eliminate junk rubbers from the game, most certainly not, but I'm aware of the problem and I do understand the frustration felt by a lot of low to medium level players.
 
At the same time, I understand the junk players frustration for not getting any credit for their results. We have a player here who have played at the same level as Biggy, but he surely wasn't given any respect. Even his own coach (Or, team president) claimed that he was a lousy player who wouldn't make it to div 4 (my low level) with inverted.

[big ears]

Tobias Bergman, a player in my team absolutely Destroys pip players, he just takes the piss, yet I asked him about in and he has not really practiced much against them, he's just too good for them in every department.
I guess he just put his 10,000 hours in so early it does not matter, he plays like Waldner, infact so much like Waldner, Im in awe.

[speedplay]

Tobias Bergman, a player in my team absolutely Destroys pip players, he just takes the piss, yet I asked him about in and he has not really practiced much against them, he's just too good for them in every department.
I guess he just put his 10,000 hours in so early it does not matter, he plays like Waldner, infact so much like Waldner, Im in awe.

Could it be because he have been practicing with Waldner? I think someone told me that he had and that he knew Waldner very well. My impression of Bergman (only seen him play once or twice) is that he relies a lot on his talent rather then hard work. He did have a great touch though and he pulled of some amazing things.

I think it's easier for those with a natural talent to play against junk players, then it is for those who reach their results due to hard work. I remember reading that already at a very young age, Waldner had an easy time against junk.

[big ears]

Could it be because he have been practicing with Waldner? I think someone told me that he had and that he knew Waldner very well. My impression of Bergman (only seen him play once or twice) is that he relies a lot on his talent rather then hard work. He did have a great touch though and he pulled of some amazing things.
.

his dad was was Waldners coach, although, I expect many Sweish players to claim this.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

To clarigfy further, by low level players, I'm assuming guys at our own age (beginning to play at 30+= who are willing to spend 2-3 hours a week to play and practice. Ambition is to improve, but not to reach the world cup. Seeing how the majority of players use double inverted, I'm doubtful that it would benefit these players to spend their precious practice time to learn how to play against junk, since they will rarely run in to it.

My local league team mate used to blame me for his lack of improvment and back then, I though he was silly. But, the thing is, I was using junk rubbers and he learned how to deal with that very well and actually managed to beat me most of the time, but against other opponents, I would win while he would lose, because he was practicing against junk, but playing against inverted. Sure, he was playing way above his level when he was faced with junk players, but he didn't reach his potential against inverted players, hwich is what he faced the most.

As Biggy says, at the higher level's, I don't think you need to practice to much against junk, cause you will have the ability to read the game and understand what is going on. How ever, on the lower level's, you don't have this ability and you will most likely play your shots based on what you are used to, and by being used to play against junk, you won't cope well against inverted.

At the levels in between, there might be some value to practice against it, since you should have the ability to read the game and adjust your strokes accordingly, but still, if only 10% of your opponents are junk players, then how much time should you spend practicing against it? 10%? If so, you will most likely be worse against junk then against inverted, thus giving the junk player an advantage
 
I don'twant to eliminate junk rubbers from the game, most certainly not, but I'm aware of the problem and I do understand the frustration felt by a lot of low to medium level players.
 
At the same time, I understand the junk players frustration for not getting any credit for their results. We have a player here who have played at the same level as Biggy, but he surely wasn't given any respect. Even his own coach (Or, team president) claimed that he was a lousy player who wouldn't make it to div 4 (my low level) with inverted.

With more perspective around the question like this, I can agree with you. If there is almost no-one in the Swedish clubs playing "junk" rubbers then it would be rare for players to even have the chance to play against it and to purposely seek it out would be a waste of time. Still I wouldn't think they should avoid the opportunity either. As Der stated, it helps understand more of TT dynamics to do so. It also helps to tune the brain to a larger number of indicators about what the ball is doing, given it isn't going to be doing the same things that inverted generally will make it do.