Style/level/strategy.

[speedplay]

I just realised a strange thing about this game, and how the lvel we play at affects our style as well as our strategy. Or, at least, it should. The reason I realised this was when our clubs best player (from the lower league teams) managed to push a good div 1 player all the way to a deciding set, which he lost, 10-12. Now, how could this be possible? The guy who plays div 1 is a good player in that division, yet he struggled so much with out guy.

The reason is, our guy have played at a higher level (also div 1, I think) so he have the skills needed, but, he have adapted his game to be as effective as possible at the level he currently plays. One of the things he have adapted to is longer serves. This is, as you all know, alethal sin at high level TT, cause long serves should always be attacked. Despite this, the div 1 player struggled with them. Now, why is that?

The answer is simple, he struggled with it because he isn't used to them! He said it him self, he was used to short serves, that should either be pushed back short, or flipped back, but now he had to deal with long spinny serves instead. The only long serves he was used to was the long, fast serve made to surprise, and usually, this serve is so fast, so if he actually managed to get his blade to it, the speed would help him make a good return, while the serves at this level could be "slow" despite their length.
 
I think this is part of the reason why some times lower level players can upset higher level players, not because they are better, or even as good, but they are good enough to post a challenge due to their style/tactics. I'm sure there are more to it then just the serve, but this was the easiest to notice and the one thing the div 1 player pinpointed him self. Btw, this wasn't his only win in the deciding set in our div 4, so he obviously struggles with more players who have a solid game for this level.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I'm confused! I thought you were the best player at your club?

Your realisation is accurate though because someone who is lower level (can't be too low) if they are a good adaptive player will change up their game for other players to suit, whether they're higher level or just different style. I have used this tactic to get by in the A2 masters where I play guys from higher senior grades than me. And in fact as a result it actually also lifts your own level as you are forced to play smarter, often using the higher ranked player's skill and confidence against them. You give them a ball that is on the border of needing to be pushed and being attackable. When they choose to attack it three things can happen. 1. They misjudge it and get the net or send it long. 2. They smash/flick on you and you block back with speed and they're in trouble. 3. They attack and win. 2/3 options in your favour. When I played Supachop, knowing he is way higher than me, I employed this sort of attitude. He putaway a lot of balls down past my BH where I read he was going to my FH and prepared to that direction for the block. Yet still I managed to take a set from him and go to deuce a couple of times just by recognising as a better player than me I needed to employ more "tricks" like short serves etc, and also surprise blocks that did go back past him when he went down my FH, or occasionally when I judged he was going to the BH in time. I think he was as surprised as I was when I won the set, but given we were playing friendly he wasn't playing exactly tight either. He could have shut me down if he wanted to, which would have made it harder to score. This is kind of what Rob did....he didn't want me to have bragging rights for taking a set from him  So he also restricted playing me to only 2 sets as well haha! (I managed to get 5 sets with Supachop  ).

[Der Echte]

I cannot remember Speedplay ever saying he was the best player in his club. I recall him implying he was very far from that. Lately, we have seen some postings from him stating he is unbeaten in his league this term. That might lead some people to think that made Speedplay the best player in his club. Whatever. It definately means he is making better results. I do not believe that is an accident in any way. There is a very good reason for him being undefeated. His opponents certainly are not laying down for him just to pump up his record.

Now Speedplay has certainly stated frequently that he would soundly defeat me in a match(es), yet he probably has a little bit to think about before he becomes totally sure of that in his heart. This is a years long running smack challange amongst us. We will continue this indefinately. I still believe Speedplay will have his body marked from me wiping the floor with his tail. He will be speechless, and that will easily become the 8th wonder of the world. That is not an easy task to accomplish - making Speedplay quiet.

Although Speedplay has said some things some ways some people do not exactly like or want to hear, I perceive Speedplay is honest in communicating what he thinks about whatever he is commenting. Even if English is not his first language, he does a lot better expressing things than a number of native English speakers.

[pingpongrob]

I'm confused! I thought you were the best player at your club?

Your realisation is accurate though because someone who is lower level (can't be too low) if they are a good adaptive player will change up their game for other players to suit, whether they're higher level or just different style. I have used this tactic to get by in the A2 masters where I play guys from higher senior grades than me. And in fact as a result it actually also lifts your own level as you are forced to play smarter, often using the higher ranked player's skill and confidence against them. You give them a ball that is on the border of needing to be pushed and being attackable. When they choose to attack it three things can happen. 1. They misjudge it and get the net or send it long. 2. They smash/flick on you and you block back with speed and they're in trouble. 3. They attack and win. 2/3 options in your favour. When I played Supachop, knowing he is way higher than me, I employed this sort of attitude. He putaway a lot of balls down past my BH where I read he was going to my FH and prepared to that direction for the block. Yet still I managed to take a set from him and go to deuce a couple of times just by recognising as a better player than me I needed to employ more "tricks" like short serves etc, and also surprise blocks that did go back past him when he went down my FH, or occasionally when I judged he was going to the BH in time. I think he was as surprised as I was when I won the set, but given we were playing friendly he wasn't playing exactly tight either. He could have shut me down if he wanted to, which would have made it harder to score. This is kind of what Rob did....he didn't want me to have bragging rights for taking a set from him  So he also restricted playing me to only 2 sets as well haha! (I managed to get 5 sets with Supachop  ).

From a Player looking on from the side of the Court - Did I look like I was a lot below Supachops Standard - I mean according to some reliable information that Big Ears recieved from a very reliable source - The Vic Standard Drops off sharpley after 20.

[Der Echte]

As for how that upper level player couldn't cope with some certain serves, every player will run into someone who they have trouble reading the ball from the bat and do not react in time. Everyone runs into someone like that every now and then, even if they are lower level player by 1-2 levels. Myself, I give 1/4 of the solid div 1 players fits with my serving. Too bad I do not receive their serves well enough right now, or I would be competitive at their level, which i am certainly not, just only against a very small number that does not make me promoted to div 1. I am in div 3 or div 2 for a good reason, not in div 1.

A number of Korean J-Pen players have big time difficulty with fast sidespin serves hit right at their body. It is difficult for them to read the changes in spin. Too easy to add bottom or top and make the serve look similar. That gives a lot of that group problems, but not all of them. The better players are very adaptive. That is among one of the reasons they are better.

[blue_smartie68]

I cannot remember Speedplay ever saying he was the best player in his club. I recall him implying he was very far from that. Lately, we have seen some postings from him stating he is unbeaten in his league this term. That might lead some people to think that made Speedplay the best player in his club. Whatever. It definately means he is making better results. I do not believe that is an accident in any way. There is a very good reason for him being undefeated. His opponents certainly are not laying down for him just to pump up his record.

1: I play the local league in my town, currently ranked as number 1, with out any losses this season.

Is Speedplay's club and local league, the same thing??

[speedplay]

Reb, I think you missed the point in the original post. The point was, our player have been playing at this very high level him self, but, now when faced with such an opponent, he didn't adapt to his style, as this would see him beaten easily, instead, he used all of his skill to continue to play the game that works so well in the lower level. Usually, when players play that kind of game, the long serves and stuff, they aren't as skilled as he is, which is why the div 1 player got in to trouble, he faced a style he wasn't used to (cause it is claimed it don't work at his level) but it was played by a player with much more skill then players who plays this style usually have. Hard to explain, but I hope you get the drift.

Der_Echte, you are right, I'm far from the best player in the club. We have 2 teams in div 4, both teams consists of 5 players (only 4 gets to play) and in the team I play, we have 2 players who are clearly better then the rest of us, but then it's fairly even between the 3 players left. In the other team, where the former high level player is, he is of course superior, then they have 2 players who are at least a level above me, and 2 players who are slightly weaker then me. So, I'm som where in the middle, lower end in the club.
 
Now being unbeaten in the local league, while it is a boost don't make me the best player in the club, as not every player in the club participates in this league. Most of the players in the loacal league are guys who used to play seriously in their youth, but now don't find the time, so they play in the local league instead.

[speedplay]

Blue-Smartie,

Didn't notice your post, but the club runs the local league, but most of the players who plays in the regional league don't play in the local league. All of my team mates in the regional league team plays local league in a neighbour town instead, because they think the level is better in that league. Well, now that they have joined it, I agree it is, but before they left our local league, I believe they where equal in terms of level.

[big ears]

Better players, who are playing someone they are going to beat anyway, don't worry about the score particularly, and try to play the game the way they want to, the same way they would in their level, not to get dragged in to a lower level of play, because to let that happen, drags their game down to that level. This is what often happens to very good players when they stop training so hard and play for pleasure.
Its all relative I'm afraid, whilst the 'good player' wins 5 in the 5th, and thinks no more about it, the player who lost congratulates himself on doing so well, and 'how it could have been' not realising that he was never going to win. Ofcourse this is generalising, and every so often there is an upset, but even then when analyzed, the 'lesser player' has often made a leap in standard and is actually a better player than his ranking suggests, this will be ROB in about 6 months when he's top 30 in Vic.

[speedplay]

Biggy, while I agree that this is often the case, I think there are exceptions. As I said here, our player have played at the same level as this guy currently plays at, but he haven't practiced for 10-15 years and he have adjusted his game to make it as efficient as possible, for this level. The div 1 player struggled a lot, cause this was a game style he wasn't used to play against, and usually when he faces it, it's lesser players who play it, with more flaws in their game to exploit. Seeing as it got to 10-10 in the deciding set, I don't think the div 1 player felt to comfortable. Also, our player have previously beaten players from div 1, so they are awear of his ability.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

From a Player looking on from the side of the Court - Did I look like I was a lot below Supachops Standard - I mean according to some reliable information that Big Ears recieved from a very reliable source - The Vic Standard Drops off sharpley after 20.

Definitely 100% most certainly and categorically NOT! Supachop put in serious effort and you still beat him. Would this transfer into a tournament the same? Who knows? I do however think that the pride at stake between you guys means he don't give away too much when he plays you. 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Now being unbeaten in the local league, while it is a boost don't make me the best player in the club, as not every player in the club participates in this league. Most of the players in the loacal league are guys who used to play seriously in their youth, but now don't find the time, so they play in the local league instead.

Like Blue-Smartie I also thought you being unbeaten in local league and winning that Cup thing made you best player for the time being. Its a little hard to follow that your regional teammates belong in your club when they play at a different local league.

And yes I sort of get the drift better now on the guy playing really well within a style that usually can be exploited by a higher level player.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Better players, who are playing someone they are going to beat anyway, don't worry about the score particularly, and try to play the game the way they want to, the same way they would in their level, not to get dragged in to a lower level of play, because to let that happen, drags their game down to that level. This is what often happens to very good players when they stop training so hard and play for pleasure.

Isn't this sort of what happened with Martin Rogers, yet you said players of class never lose it? Seems to go against the grain.

[big ears]

Isn't this sort of what happened with Martin Rogers, yet you said players of class never lose it? Seems to go against the grain.

 Well, I've never said that is what has happened to him, he's a quality player in my book, but you've got to be realistic Reb, if you've been to a decent level, you really don't ever lose it, you've done it achieved it, proved its possible, and it enables you to still win through your enlightened awareness, against player who have not achieved the same standard. So you can go on playing to a standard even though you are not playing as much as you were to get to your best. Martin Rogers was top 50 when he first came to England, he's around the 120 mark thsesdays, but that only means something if you know what the standard is like, the 'drop off' in England is around the 200 mark, below that players tend to be erratically rated, but you really must compare English top 200 to Vic top 20, and I can't see why it would not be so. I think this is where most opf the miss-understandings are, you guys just can't believe there is a difference between English rankings and Vic, let alone Aus in general. When Martin did first come up here, he was Aus top 10, yet just inside the English top 50, when English top 50 players go down under, they end up Aus top 10.

[speedplay]

Like Blue-Smartie I also thought you being unbeaten in local league and winning that Cup thing made you best player for the time being. Its a little hard to follow that your regional teammates belong in your club when they play at a different local league.

And yes I sort of get the drift better now on the guy playing really well within a style that usually can be exploited by a higher level player.

I understand that this might seem strange to you guys, but this could possibly be explained by how our TT communion works. I don't know how far away your club is from your home, or how far away it is to the next club, but I have imagined that you have bigger clubs then we, when it comes to the number of members, but you might not have as many clubs as we do.


The local league that I play in consists of players who all live with in a 20 minutes drive to the club. To find another club to play in, I would have to drive ... 20 minutes to get there. Or, a third club, it would take me roughly 20 minutes to get to that one as well. If I'm still not happy, I might have to endure a 30 minutes drive, to have another 8-10 clubs to pick from. So, the guys who plays in my regional team have decided to play in a different local league, 2 of them because they live a lot closer to this, and the 2 others because they think the quality in that local league is better.
 
So, being the best player in the local league and winning the local league cup don't make me the best player in the club. Even though I likes to pretend it does

[blue_smartie68]

Thanks for your explainations Speedy... although it's still a bit confusing, at least I have some idea now 

I live in a small country town... and have to drive 40 minutes to the nearest major centre (Shepparton, population about 38,000) to play in my local club. We don't have various leagues or anything... simply one club with 3 or so grades, and a juniors comp... and that's it! Probably about 100 members all up.
To drive to any other club takes me over an hour... I played in Rob's home club in Sunbury in the spring season (Just finished)... and that takes me about an hour and twenty minutes to get there. This club is on the outskirts of Melbourne, where there are more clubs and these are certainly closer together than the country ones. Also the city clubs are generally larger with more depth of talent... right up to the dizzy heights of Dandenong 

[pingpongrob]

Well, I've never said that is what has happened to him, he's a quality player in my book, but you've got to be realistic Reb, if you've been to a decent level, you really don't ever lose it, you've done it achieved it, proved its possible, and it enables you to still win through your enlightened awareness, against player who have not achieved the same standard. So you can go on playing to a standard even though you are not playing as much as you were to get to your best. Martin Rogers was top 50 when he first came to England, he's around the 120 mark thsesdays, but that only means something if you know what the standard is like, the 'drop off' in England is around the 200 mark, below that players tend to be erratically rated, but you really must compare English top 200 to Vic top 20, and I can't see why it would not be so. I think this is where most opf the miss-understandings are, you guys just can't believe there is a difference between English rankings and Vic, let alone Aus in general. When Martin did first come up here, he was Aus top 10, yet just inside the English top 50, when English top 50 players go down under, they end up Aus top 10.

There is always a roundabout when it come to explaining the standard of your player  , a way out, a way around any truth, yet with us we are just lousy untill proven - I bet thats what you said about Greg Letts before you played him.

Anyway I still believe thats styles and strategies effect players, sometimes it might take you 3 or 4 times of playing a particular style before you get the grasp of how to beat the player, this is more eveident in our Vets.

I've seen it many times when a lower standard player is raised a grade to fill in, and he causes havic.  Sometime there is not much between the standards, Focus, Movement, ability to play against combo players, ability to read serves, killer instint. These all acount for about 1 - 3 %, but could actually place you down a few grades.

[Der Echte]

All of you are lucky dogs. Even if in OZ, finding TT can be sparse, in USA, you can drive hours and not find anyone who knows what the initials TT stand for.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

All of you are lucky dogs. Even if in OZ, finding TT can be sparse, in USA, you can drive hours and not find anyone who knows what the initials TT stand for.

Given what you just said Der, I assume something like TravelTennis?

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I understand that this might seem strange to you guys, but this could possibly be explained by how our TT communion works. I don't know how far away your club is from your home, or how far away it is to the next club, but I have imagined that you have bigger clubs then we, when it comes to the number of members, but you might not have as many clubs as we do.


The local league that I play in consists of players who all live with in a 20 minutes drive to the club. To find another club to play in, I would have to drive ... 20 minutes to get there. Or, a third club, it would take me roughly 20 minutes to get to that one as well. If I'm still not happy, I might have to endure a 30 minutes drive, to have another 8-10 clubs to pick from. So, the guys who plays in my regional team have decided to play in a different local league, 2 of them because they live a lot closer to this, and the 2 others because they think the quality in that local league is better.
 
So, being the best player in the local league and winning the local league cup don't make me the best player in the club. Even though I likes to pretend it does

My club is 15 minutes drive and yep I'd say its bigger than yours with about 350 active comp players and 500 members overall. I have a club that is 5 minutes as well, but its the one I came back to TT at, and its poorly run with only about 50 players. Next clubs are around the 30-45 minute mark. There are about 6 or 7 in this range. One of those is about as big as my club, one 3/4 the size and the others would perhaps be half the size. Within an hour there is then another half dozen or more. A couple of those are over half the size of my club, one would be 3/4 the size. These are the affiliated clubs, there are also a host of unaffiliated clubs that are harder to find. There are 2 or 3 I know of within 30 minutes of me. These are all clubs within the city limits. Step outside into Country Victoria and there is another band of clubs that number around the dozen or so. Most are within 2 hours drive, 2.5 to Blue-Smarties club at Shepparton.

So now you talk about depth, given you can start TT and within 5 years win the top prize of your club, that is near impossible to do at my club with the strength there is at the top. Forget the Elite play level above local club play, let's refocus it on the common club player. Somehow I think there is not the depth in there that we have.

[Silver]

Given what you just said Der, I assume something like TravelTennis?

I'd have said Time Trial

[Der Echte]

I thought he would say the Audi TT convertable auto.

[speedplay]

So now you talk about depth, given you can start TT and within 5 years win the top prize of your club, that is near impossible to do at my club with the strength there is at the top. Forget the Elite play level above local club play, let's refocus it on the common club player. Somehow I think there is not the depth in there that we have.

Now you are just being silly Reb. I told you, the regional league players don't participate in this event, neither does any other "good" player. This is more of a recreational league, for those who used to play seriously in the past but now can't find the time to put in the practice they would need to play in regional league. I play in it mostly because I need the match practice, being a late starter as I am. The depth comes through if you look at the regional league teams and what players there are in them. Such as a former elite player (roughly 10 years ago) now plays div 5, and have lost 2 matches this season. Now, not to be rude, but I bet a former elite player in Aussie would still sit pretty high up in the rankings in Aussie, cause you simply do not have the depth to challenge these guys.

[pingpongrob]

Now, not to be rude, but I bet a former elite player in Aussie would still sit pretty high up in the rankings in Aussie, cause you simply do not have the depth to challenge these guys.

nah, they just give up because they don't want to be beat by Noobs like me.

[Der Echte]

USA isn't exactly the example of depth. If a dozen more "retired" players started playing tourneys again, almost the entire top 25 would be 35-40 years old or older. (at least 2/3 of them anyway)

For the longest time, no young USA born/raised player could defeat the 40ish crowd to win our national title.

[big ears]

My club is 15 minutes drive and yep I'd say its bigger than yours with about 350 active comp players and 500 members overall. I have a club that is 5 minutes as well, but its the one I came back to TT at, and its poorly run with only about 50 players. Next clubs are around the 30-45 minute mark. There are about 6 or 7 in this range. One of those is about as big as my club, one 3/4 the size and the others would perhaps be half the size. Within an hour there is then another half dozen or more. A couple of those are over half the size of my club, one would be 3/4 the size. These are the affiliated clubs, there are also a host of unaffiliated clubs that are harder to find. There are 2 or 3 I know of within 30 minutes of me. These are all clubs within the city limits. Step outside into Country Victoria and there is another band of clubs that number around the dozen or

Within 1 hours drive from my house, there are around 200 clubs, comprising roughly 4/5000 actively competitive ETTA affiliated players. Different world.
 Towns/cities within 1 hour drive from Lincoln, with leagues comprising of separate division, and varying quantities of clubs;

Gainsbough, Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Grantham, Boston, Stamford, Peterborough, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Worksop, Hull, Selby, Beverly,Loughborough, Leicester, Retford, Mansfield, Matlock, Pontefract, Melton Mowbray Derby Burton on Trent.... Probably a few more, thats all I can think of, but all these towns have a multitude of clubs that play against each other, Big cities such as Nottingham have 20+ clubs.

[blue_smartie68]

Wow BE!!
Wish things would take off here and we even had half of that action!!!

[big ears]

A small league would be similar to Worksop;
http://www.worksopttl.net/Worksop_and_District_Table_Tennis_League.htm

 A large league would be similar to Sheffield;

http://www.sheffieldtabletennis.co.uk/   

(BTW, the training camp advertised is one of mine.)

each team has 3+ players, and most of the Leagues I listed have web sites if you google them.

[JKC]

I suspect within an hour of me I have even more clubs and leagues than BE when you consider I could get to Leeds, Bradford, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, York, Sheffield and numerous other smaller towns in around an hour or less.

[big ears]

I suspect within an hour of me I have even more clubs and leagues than BE when you consider I could get to Leeds, Bradford, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, York, Sheffield and numerous other smaller towns in around an hour or less.

I would agree JKC, our @ areas overlap (JKC is about one and a half hours drive from me)

 I forgot, Rotherham and Barnsley, still only an hours drive from Lincoln, but both with sizable TT leagues.
 I also think that there is a difference between AUS and England (I don't know about Sweden) in that In Aus, the leagues tend to be played within one club, In England the matches are between different clubs at different venues.