How to play Long Pips according to Coach Li.

[pingpongrob]

I was sent this link, I would like you all to watch it so we can have an intelligent discussion about the technique's coach Li teaches.  I find him very informative, but I think that some of the directions although explained well, as very basic.

http://www.tabletennisuniversity.com/videos/video2-pips/

he calls them funny rubbers - I dont see anything funny about them 

[speedplay]

He's off to a bad start since he says that you are allowed to touch your opponents bat before the match. Now, unless the rules have been changed recently, they state that you are free to visually check your opponents bat. You are not allowed to touch it.

Still, that's a minor thing and he makes a good job of presenting the basics.

[pingpongrob]

He's off to a bad start since he says that you are allowed to touch your opponents bat before the match. Now, unless the rules have been changed recently, they state that you are free to visually check your opponents bat. You are not allowed to touch it.

Still, that's a minor thing and he makes a good job of presenting the basics.

Anything that you can see he states incorrectly - it could throw his viewers of a fair bit.

[blue_smartie68]

Hmmm... someone should tell supachop that you can't attack/loop with pips!! 

[pingpongrob]

Hmmm... someone should tell supachop that you can't attack/loop with pips!! 

I think what Coach Li was referring to, was the OX version.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

That was a crack up!! I giggled a lot of the way through it as his explanations while accurate in a basic kind of way for most things he said, it was very rudimentary. I found it funny where he said all you can do is sideswipe shots with LP and if they are doing anything else, must not be LP (or actually he said even worse calling it Pips Out - which SP and MP also qualify as). Also saying that spin is just opposite of what you send to the "Pips Out" player isn't very useful considering different pips will not send back a uniform reversal of what is provided. Laughed at his explanation of crazy spin coming back as "wooo *curly* wooo"  (ie, wobble or flutter ball). Of course this is one possible outcome, but only one. The guy was kind of the semi-blind trying to lead the "semi-blind" as he kind of poorly communicated the "best of his knowledge".  I guess for someone who is learning the game and has absolutely no idea on how pips work, its a basic insight thats better than nothing. I also laughed when he said when the push comes back its no spin so don't be shy just smash it - wish my opponents would do that more - most smash attempts on my no spin returns end in the net or long unless its a really plumb popup they've gotten which happens very occasionally. And even with Ox LP you CAN attack with considerable power against "bottom" spin.

Seems to me this was more like TT Kindergarten than TT University!

[big ears]

Its all about perspectives, from his, anyone below international level is judged as 'casual' and in need of basic knowledge. In the same way, constantly on the forums, posters talk about 'pro's because from their perspective, anyone of that standard is way above theirs, and they tend to lump them all together in one standard. When you really think about it though, there are many different levels of 'pro' table tennis, and a gradual transition and crossover including the best amature players/ex pro's to the young hopefuls new to a national squad.
From YOUR point of view, think of two players who you can easily beat, I bet you make little distinction between which one of them is 'better, you just lump them together as a standard below yours. If you have played seriously and studied TT, clips like Mr Li's can seem very patronising, yet he is only talking from his perspective, and its a clear message that Getting advice from the top is not always the best idea, he has little knowledge of TT at amature levels.

[JKC]

I only managed about 4 mins as I got bored. I don't need lessons in facing LP anyway.
One of the players in my local league team used to practice regularly with Chen Xinhua when he lived locally so I could always ask him.

[big ears]

Now you are talking, Chen Xin Hua had the most rediculous serves, I've seen international standard players not have a clue...

[speedplay]

Now you are talking, Chen Xin Hua had the most rediculous serves, I've seen international standard players not have a clue...

Better then Rumgay Gavin? He won against a member of our top team, mainly because of his serve.

[big ears]

Better then Rumgay Gavin? He won against a member of our top team, mainly because of his serve.

 Oh' certainly Speedy, his serves were just second to none,  in that style, better than Waldners, they were truly awsome. How the hell can you make downward action with the blade and make topspin? how the hell can you make an upswinging stroke on the ball (in service) and its chop? He did it, seriously, I saw it first hand.

[Der Echte]

B.E. I do not doubt what you saw firsthand. I make myself a topspin serve with a motion that looks like I am impacting exactly like a bottomspin, but the high toss and a very short backward and upward motion at impact creates some medium topspin. Great serve when I can manage to make it short, because 9 out of 10 times, it looks like a bottomspin ball, and I get a lot of returns out, or popups for a smash finish. You and JKC (who serves 2x better than I do) know all about the blade angle and swing direction at impact dynamics. This serve kills even a lot of Korea's national level Div 1 players, who are easily USATT 2400-2500 for starters, which is probably near the level you are at B.E.

Jeong Young Sik (This Korean U21 young dude is around WR30) his father (He is always at our local tourneys in Uijeongbu area) showed me a serve his son taught him. He impacts the ball violently. The actual contact point is under the ball and the actual blade direction at impact is forward, which creates a medium to heavy bottomspin. There is an immediate follow through that is just like that of a no spin. The motion is so fast and smooth, that it really looks like he is making a fast no spin serve, but it has a lot of cut on it, amount can be manipualated.

From what you describe, that dude shapes up to be bonifide Jedi_Knight Master of similar motion and bat angle/direction and timing for serve. Probably freekishly unreal smooth, fast and well timed with deceptive followthrough.

Serving is something I am deeply interested in becoming much better and I look to saok up anything that makes me better at it. B.E. a lot of what you have said about serving to limit opponents' options and increase the liklihood of such and such return really have rung true. I look to keep reading and discussing stuff like this.

[blue_smartie68]

Just on the subject of serving....
How much time do people spend practicing their serves and even pondering/experimenting with new serves??

I have a few variations that are still in experimental stage, no where near consistant enough to introduce into my game... however I do sometimes throw one in against a lower opponent when well ahead. This usually ends up as a slightly embarrasing muffed effort and gazes from the ump/opponent as if to say wtf was that?? lol 

I find practicing serving rather teadious, and very, very hard to focus on each serve as if in a game situation. Any more than half a dozen attempts seems to leave me just going through the motions and I have to stop myself, mentally adjust and try to refocus.
How do others go about this?

And while on the topic... does anyone purposely set out to come up with a new serve? Or is it more a case of noticing an opponent/team mate's effective serves and trying to copy them?

Cheers ("I'll start some action in another thread if it kills me"), Chris 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Cheers ("I'll start some action in another thread if it kills me"), Chris 

You could have started a whole new thread for this topic Chris lol.

I also find serve practice tedious. I used to do it a bit, bit now rarely. I sometimes play around with my serve in practice matches when I can be bothered, just to see if anything else works. Otherwise I just try to tune up my kitbag (of which there are 3 or 4 standards with variations on them) serves more.

[blue_smartie68]

You could have started a whole new thread for this topic Chris lol.

Yeah, I did consider this... and also considered just throwing it in that other thread that has had more twists, turns and tangents than a University Geometry class!!
Since Der started the service discussion here... I just went with it 

BE... how do you instruct service practice? Short sessions with a few balls.... or having a huge basket of balls and serve until your wrist is sore?

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Chris I'll tell you what Mars63 (unsighted member of the forum, ex A1 Dandy player and friend) told me. He said he improved his serves by having a box of about 150 balls and serving them into a robot catching net, collecting them up and doing it about 10 times over with a different serve each 150. He was very insistent that serving well and with deception was so important that whenever we had a hit-up, he'd spend the first hour drilling me on serves. Some of it sunk in and I do serve better now. He has wicked serves that were very hard to read. He also had quite a few "foot-stomping" serves that covered the noise of what he was doing (he also retired hurt from comp TT due to a damaged foot muscle  ). I certainly know I win quite a few points off serve though and if the rest of my game is in form too, I usually can notch the win.

[JKC]

I have spent precisely 1 hour of my life practicing serves. It was 1 evening about 18 months ago while my wife and kids were on holiday in Ibiza. Decided I couldn't really be bothered after that.

[blocker]

If, like most of the guys here, you are serious or semi-serious about improving your game I would've thought at least 20-30 minutes serving practice with a box of balls per session is time well spent. Also, ongoing experimentation in practice games is a good idea. It's funny that the shots most frequently used - serve and service-return - are usually the least practiced by players below the elitish level.

Do you still do service practice BE? Do you encourage your students to do a lot of it?

 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Blocker in your time around the traps who would be the best server you've seen (knowing your powers of analysis and observation)? Talking vic history here, not Aus or World. I know you go back a ways, so do you think there is anyone who has stood out to you as particularly tricky? And what would you say defined their serves to make them really great. Deception, speed, outright spin? And do you reckon that being a great server equates to being a great player?

[blocker]

Blocker in your time around the traps who would be the best server you've seen (knowing your powers of analysis and observation)? Talking vic history here, not Aus or World. I know you go back a ways, so do you think there is anyone who has stood out to you as particularly tricky? And what would you say defined their serves to make them really great. Deception, speed, outright spin? And do you reckon that being a great server equates to being a great player?

I'm probably not the best person to ask Reb as there have been long periods where I didn't watch the top Vic players much. To be honest not many Vic players really stand out to me as being exceptional. Internationally I think players like Hsu Shaofa, Guo Yue Hua, Waldner, and Ma Lin weren't/aint too bad. 

Your qstn: "Do you reckon that being a great server equates to being a great player?" is a good one. Serves are as much a part of the game as loops, pushes, blocks etc. but many people don't see it this way. If a player is a good player partly/largely because of his serves then he is a good player IMHO.

[speedplay]

If I may add to this, I must say that those who have a good serve and rely on it a lot often find it hard to advance, because once they reach a level where their serves don't win them the point, the rest of their game is usually not up to par with the level of play their serves have got them to.

I don't practice serves with a box of ball, simply because it is way to boring. How ever, we do have a third ball drill, where the server should always try to attack the third ball. This helps both the server and the receiver and gives immediate feed back if the serve/return is good or not.

[big ears]

I have always practiced my serves, ever since I realised a long time ago that they hold the key to everything, they take the pressure off the rest of your game, make you able to win, even when you are playing bad, and 9/10 times, the player with the best serves wins at deuce.
my method involves taking my time. I use only one ball, address the table as I would in a match, from the side, bounce the ball etc and serve what i'm practicing. Then I walk to pick the ball up and start again. I find personally that the 'big bucket of balls' method tends to make you rattle off serves in quick succession without really analyzing what you are doing. Even the most simple serves when delivered properly are a con trick, what is deemed 'tight' in one level, is not in a higher level where the necessity to contact the ball lower is paramount to the quality of the shallow bounce. It is virtualy impossible to make a quality short/half long serve without practice, because the tragectory defies what is deemed possible. Because the contact is so late, the ball should not climb high enough to clear the net, this is overcome by adding velocity, making the distance in height from the bat contact to the first bounce shorter than the height of the bounce needed to clear the net. This means the whole thing is shallower, less bouncy and harder to flick (limiting the options) Its hard to explain, but basically imaging a rollercoaster, the first drop having to be bigger than the second and so on, well this results in a bouncy service. Now imagine a rollercoaster that is propelled by air compression, its forced over the first hill from a low start.
I constantly coach service techniques, its one area that my pupils get instant success with because I teach them to ask themselves why they are serving a given ball, what they want from it? what are they likely to get in return? and most of all, get right out of the habit of serving just to put the ball into play, and waiting to see what happens.

[blocker]

I still like the box of balls system (simply because it is more efficient) but I agree with BE that you should take your time and not simply rattle off serves quickly. I begin with trying to get as much spin as possible (regardless of length) through fast and fine contact. Once I am happy with that I then work on length and placement but always trying to maintain the same degree of spin. It is very surprising how even many top players struggle to get much spin on their serves because they reduce the spin in order to keep the ball tight.

When I was travelling in Europe many many moons ago I attended a few random group training sessions at a club and the coach always began an exercise (footwork or whatever) with a short spin serve followed by a flick or pushed return. This may be commonplace now (is it BE?) but at the time I was very impressed. Serve/receive tends to be so under-practiced and this was a good way of correcting the imbalance.

[Der Echte]

Yeah, I did consider this... and also considered just throwing it in that other thread that has had more twists, turns and tangents than a University Geometry class!!
Since Der started the service discussion here... I just went with it 

BE... how do you instruct service practice? Short sessions with a few balls.... or having a huge basket of balls and serve until your wrist is sore?

I rarely get credit for starting a discussion, although I am credited for starting shit all the time. :)

My contributions are usually along the lines of adding to a discussion already started, or supporting a forum member(s).

Still, improving the serve helped me improve a lot, even a little bit in the receive department, since I understood the dynamics. however, that never replaces repetitions, muscle memory, experience, and decisiveness.

I am still most interested in why some good player serves such and such serve how and looks to do what and what/how with the return to accomplish what and what.

Although I have a lot of serves with deception above my level, I am not consistant enough yet and tend to stop being original later in the match or matchday and become more predictable. (Tend to use the same 3 serves to similar spots) Although I am aware of how bad that is, I seem to still drift in that direction. i hope more reps, matches, and time/experience correct this.

Who went through that?

[speedplay]

I actually think that to much variation in the serves department brings some uncertainty to your game. I have 3 bread and butter serves that I rely on, then every now and then I throw in something else to keep them on their toes, but these 3 serves gives me a some what predictable return, which in my case is the most important thing from a serve. Better players are certainly quicker to adapt to a weak return then I am, but if I can predict the return, it doesn't have to be a bad return for me to be able to do something with it. A pop up ball that I haven't predicted rarely gets useful for me, unless it is on the catastrophical level.

[big ears]

When I was travelling in Europe many many moons ago I attended a few random group training sessions at a club and the coach always began an exercise (footwork or whatever) with a short spin serve followed by a flick or pushed return. This may be commonplace now (is it BE?) but at the time I was very impressed. Serve/receive tends to be so under-practiced and this was a good way of correcting the imbalance.

Both on my own doing 1to1 coaching, and when attending training camps with other coaches, we tend to use 7 minute slots for drills, swapping feeder/exerciser twice, so 14 minutes is spent in total on any drill. The drills alternate between regular/irregular and service based, our service based drills generally end each 'point' with free play. When I was playing at a higher level (BR league prem) the team would spend an hour on service and reciept before every match.