how good are these players.

[pingpongrob]

Am I doing something wrong? I see her as ranked 586 not 861 something? Also ranked 5th not 4th like BE said.

http://www.ittfranking.com/gen/country/coENGW_en.htm

Anyway don't forget that England has higher ranked players too.

To throw a spanner in the works, I reckon she'd beat Tapper and also Claire Campbell-Innes...

We are showing you ITTF Rankings not Australian.
Have you seen Tapper play lately - her shots a full of power, and consistent to.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Which of your opinions did I have a crack on? As for Tristan vs Biggy, I know Biggy have stated that he rarely loses to players rated below him, and seeing as Tristan is ~150 positions lower then Biggy, I think it is safe to assume it would be an upset if Tristan won.

If it was the Dandenong comment, it wasn't based so much on what you have said about this video, but rather about how you constantly rate Dandenong as a very high level place, which, if you excuse me, I don't think it is, compared to stronger TT nations then Australia. It might be the strongest competition in Australia, this is something you guys would know better then me.

Ok, It came across as you was only referring to the vid of Karina v my Dandy A3-A1 comment, when you hadn't even seen the vid. Cos trust me, she looks nothing special in her shots in this vid. The only thing that I would say even hints that she is of decent standard was that her footwork was in constant movement and positioning, but then she would still send shots long or in the net.

As for Tristran v Biggy, we are in total agreeance.

Dandy is a strong comp in Australia and you are right it would not make sense that it would be strong on a world level if comparing with other TT nations "best club players". However, I do think our best would hold their own at a reasonable level in other nations clubs. For 2 examples of players our club has produced, Robbie Frank and Hemming Hu come to mind. Robbie was in our Commonwealth games team (and partnered William Henzell in the doubles) and Hemming is only 16 and is going to China to train for a year aiming for the Olympics in 2012. Now there does come a point in skill where players become too good for our A1 division, which is where they are going off to take on the world. This tells me that the club is a reasonably good testing/training ground for this to happen, but of course the best club players eventually are not challenging enough to push a world class limit. I doubt there is too many clubs in the world where world class players compete in competition (unless they are egotists that just want to show they can blow people away, its just not worth their while). Essentially though I only have my club and what I see there to compare players in vids to, and I don't think it is unreasonable to make such comparisons for what they're worth (which is virtually nothing cos we are on a forum just shooting the breeze in the end).

[Silver]

We are showing you ITTF Rankings not Australian.
Have you seen Tapper play lately - her shots a full of power, and consistent to.

No, but I've seen Claire play lately and it was decidedly average.

Anyway, the link I put down ARE ittf rankings.

[diamondinvest]

Ive been told at Coburg has the best standard club in Victoria.

[big ears]

The clip of Katerina and trisran is IMO unfairly edited against Katerina, it was filmed by Trist and edited for his angle on the match, not Katerina's, so shows an unbalanced view of Katerina's consistency, although I have to say, she is just a girl and only ranked so high because quite a few more mature and advanced players at the English top of the ladies game, have packed in from competition recently.
I would say Tristrans 200+ ranking shows the depth of the standard in England rather than the quality, what I mean is, we have so many players, they are not nececarily better than amature players in Aus, its just that there are more of them, so when it comes to ranking them, things don't fall into place quite so easily, you can have players ranked 500 that are well capable of taking out a player ranked 250. In countries without the depth, this is virtually impossible. Take the Scottish rankings I mentioned on the other thread, those guys are all Scottish top 10, yet they can't make the English top100, by the time you get down to the Scottish top 100, well.... you don't they can't make that depth. How many players on the Australian National Ratings list?
 BTW, I think I've played Tristran 3 times, and he is always competitive, has definately improved recently, but I am sure he would agree, he would be extremely happy to beat me.

[pingpongrob]

How many players on the Australian National Ratings list?

Victoria has 1075 Males listed on the ranking list, at a guess the Australian List must be about 4 times this.

Looking at Tristans game, at an educated guess, I would say that if you tried the score might look something like 11-5

[big ears]

Victoria has 1075 Males listed on the ranking list, at a guess the Australian List must be about 4 times this.

Looking at Tristans game, at an educated guess, I would say that if you tried the score might look something like 11-5

There is a difference in that your list includes everyone who plays in a league, ours only includes players who play in national events. So my County (Lincolnshire) easily has 1000 players, playing in 8 different leagues, the equivalent of your 'pennant' grades, but only a fraction are ranked nationally, the ones who enter tournaments or play in National competitions. Nationally we have some 300 leagues.........

[pingpongrob]

There is a difference in that your list includes everyone who plays in a league, ours only includes players who play in national events. So my County (Lincolnshire) easily has 1000 players, playing in 8 different leagues, the equivalent of your 'pennant' grades, but only a fraction are ranked nationally, the ones who enter tournaments or play in National competitions. Nationally we have some 300 leagues.........

BE you asked the question, so I answered it - what does it have to do with the price of fish. Ranking Systems can be and have been exploited.
I know lots of players that withdraw from events just so they dont lose those valubale points, or they might have a look at the draw and decide their a little sick.

[blue_smartie68]

There is a difference in that your list includes everyone who plays in a league, ours only includes players who play in national events.

BE, if by "league" you mean pennant competitions, then this isn't correct. There are only a handful out of probably 30-ish various affiliated associations throughout Victoria who actually submit their pennant results to Table Tennis Victoria for rankings... alot of the 1075 players Rob mentioned only receive a ranking because they play in sanctioned tournaments throughout the year. My local club are not on the TTV ranking system, so a few very handy players don't have rankings because they don't play outside our club. I'm sure this is the same with most clubs.

Likewise, I don't think even the scaringly powerful Dandenong club submit their pennant results either... hence Reb not having a ranking 

[diamondinvest]

Thats correct. Even Diamond Valley's league which isnt strong but have a few players that would rate reasonably in the Rankings do not because they dont play sanctioned tournaments and their local results are not forwarded to TTV.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

BE, if by "league" you mean pennant competitions, then this isn't correct. There are only a handful out of probably 30-ish various affiliated associations throughout Victoria who actually submit their pennant results to Table Tennis Victoria for rankings... alot of the 1075 players Rob mentioned only receive a ranking because they play in sanctioned tournaments throughout the year. My local club are not on the TTV ranking system, so a few very handy players don't have rankings because they don't play outside our club. I'm sure this is the same with most clubs.

Likewise, I don't think even the scaringly powerful Dandenong club submit their pennant results either... hence Reb not having a ranking 

Spot on the money there Chris!

[big ears]

I don't understand why the lack of uniformity, it appears that some associations submit results and some don't, hows that? surely the way to run an accurate rating list is for ALL results at a uniform agreed level, to be submitted, you lot make it all sound so roughshod down there.
A local league (equivalent of your pennant) can't submit any results to the ETTA because they would not be accepted, they don't count, the difference i was trying to point out anyway, was that TTV has its own list separate from the Aus list.

[blocker]

I don't understand why the lack of uniformity, it appears that some associations submit results and some don't, hows that? surely the way to run an accurate rating list is for ALL results at a uniform agreed level, to be submitted, you lot make it all sound so roughshod down there.
A local league (equivalent of your pennant) can't submit any results to the ETTA because they would not be accepted, they don't count, the difference i was trying to point out anyway, was that TTV has its own list separate from the Aus list.

I could be wrong about this but I think some clubs don't submit results because they don't want to pay registration fees to TTV. Even so, TTV may not use the local pennant results in the rankings list anyway (even though some local pennants might be stronger than some of the TTV pennants).

If it is true that the TTV and the Australian TTA lists are separate (which they seem to be) then that is a silly state of affairs.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

As I understand it, Dandenong could submit league results for players to obtain rankings, but choose not to, not because of rego fees as we pay these, not that I think we get much value for our money from TTV (if any). I don't know if Vic list differs from Aus list or not, but I suspect it could easily be the case given each state has its own rankings which may not feed into the national rankings directly. 

[blue_smartie68]

I'm sure TTV would love all clubs to eventually be online with their ranking system to have an accurate and widespread rating of Victorian players....and I think this is probably their long term aim.
The player ranking system really has nothing to do with clubs being affiliated with TTV.... most clubs are affiliated, and as I mentioned, I think there is around 30ish clubs around Victoria registered (** just checked the TTV website and they say over 40 clubs are registered with them).

Outside of this, there are a few clubs who "go it alone" and have nothing to do with TTV at all. The couple I know of still play games to 21... and although there are some good players in these clubs... they are just happy keeping to themselves!

Clubs register with TTV mainly for insurance reasons... but also, every player who plays in tournaments or even the once-a-year country week championships has to be registered in order to compete. So clubs that have their own insurance cover and don't send any players off to tournaments simply don't bother. But as I have said... there are 40ish clubs registered, and probably only 3 or 4 (?) that don't.

Of those 40 odd clubs around the state... I think there would only be about half a dozen (maybe 10... guessing here!) who have actually set up programs for recording and relaying pennant results to TTV... and of these, some only do it for the main winter comp.. not for all comps run by the particular club. I guess the reason many clubs don't do this is purely because of the work involved! If a club doesn't have a lot of members who play in tournaments... then there's little reason to do the extra work! I know with my local Shepparton club, I'm the only one who travels around to play tournaments! A handfull of others obtain a (rather inaccurate) ranking once a year when we enter teams in the country week championships.... but I'll bet none of them even realise this and wouldn't have a clue what their points are. I'm the only tragic who can't wait til the next months points come out to see if I've improved my standing in the rankings list!! 

Any player from any club (as long as they are registered) can compete in tournaments and will automatically be included in the ranking system and their points will gradually reflect their ability.... more accurately as time goes on and more matches are played.
I find the rating points system most inaccurate for players who only play in their local club (and that club does submit results for rankings). Because they only play against familiar opponents each week... their points are often not be a true reflection of how they would compete in an outside tournament.... but I guess if they never really venture from their own club, then it doesn't really matter!

That's my understanding of it all anyway! 

I have no idea how the Vic rankings related to Australian rankings!!   

[blue_smartie68]

Ive been told at Coburg has the best standard club in Victoria.

Hi diamondinvest... welcome to the forum! 

I've played at Coburg in one of their Christmas comps... and they certainly have a vibrant club! Not sure that it would be the best standard... I think that honour may go to Croydon, or Reb's famous Dandenongians....

Cheers,
Chris

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Yes I think Dandy and Croydon would outweigh the strength of Coburg. Coburg has less divisions, less tables and I'm sure less members. Their are some decent players there for sure. Croydon only has 3 "A" grade divisions while Dandy has 5. I have played 2 of Croydon's A3 division players this year. Beat one 4-3 three weeks ago in comp. The other was one of their A3 leading players and while he beat me 4-1 in comp, playing him later and getting used to his style (which was very unorthodox) I was on par with him and I was in B1 at the time. Also played 2 of their B1 players a few months back and beat them quite easily. While this doesn't hold a great deal of info on which club is stronger, I also know that their stronger A2 players would generally get a thrashing from our A2 players (many Croydon players play Thursdays at Dandy). I think our A1 division would probably be overall stronger from what I know, but I don't have as much personal knowledge of the Croydon A1 guys now. I do know one of their best was Michael Belot who is a very good player of ex-state standard, but not quite up to the standard of Danny Semmler at Dandy (who is one of his good mates).

[diamondinvest]

This is a quote from Bruce Carter at Coburg:

"Now I will point out that our section is the toughest in Victoria as I only play 14 players (7 teams of 2 with a bye ) Maurice would not get a run in our top grade unless he found a good partner He wont play club champs this year but if he did would not be in top 20 players - but again I point out this is a very strong club at the moment.
1-Percy (former semi pro player in china) 2-David Brand - on come back former vic player and no 2 in aust over 30s a few years back 3-Earn chew -former no 2 in malaysia 4-Be Phu Huyhn - no 1 vic over 50s 5-Michael Huang- top 20 vic 6-Duncan Tu - top 20 Victoria 7-Craig Carter - former vic player -top 20 in vic 8-John Pattison - top 4 vic over 40s

this is a very strong list for a local club"

[Silver]

There are three reasons why TTV (and every other state) have a list separate from the national list

1) Because none of the S!7#$! F#$#$^& could agree on a single one. Some states don't even have ratings/rankings...

2) Because TTV control the national list and because of (1), it wouldn't be fair to everyone outside TTV if they had the ttv list as the national list.

3) Despite what biggy thinks about our 'Open', it really is 'Closed' to the majority of our players. Unless you are
(a) state-sponsored (ie, made the state team to go to the aus open),
(b) nominated for 'presidents' team, ie, a group of misc who make up a spare team
(c) external country)
you can't just sign up and play in the open. What all this means is the National list is restricted to the 'top' players from each state. So in a sense it's the same as England's open, just a broader scope due to less players (hence lower competition), lower standards from some states, etc

Ideally we'd all merge into one big list: for all it's shortcomings, I feel the USATT system is far better than this fractured system we currently have.

[Der Echte]

If someone says their national system suck rocks even more than USA system, then that is saying a lot.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

This is a quote from Bruce Carter at Coburg:

"Now I will point out that our section is the toughest in Victoria as I only play 14 players (7 teams of 2 with a bye ) Maurice would not get a run in our top grade unless he found a good partner He wont play club champs this year but if he did would not be in top 20 players - but again I point out this is a very strong club at the moment.
1-Percy (former semi pro player in china) 2-David Brand - on come back former vic player and no 2 in aust over 30s a few years back 3-Earn chew -former no 2 in malaysia 4-Be Phu Huyhn - no 1 vic over 50s 5-Michael Huang- top 20 vic 6-Duncan Tu - top 20 Victoria 7-Craig Carter - former vic player -top 20 in vic 8-John Pattison - top 4 vic over 40s

this is a very strong list for a local club"

It sounds like a strong top division, sure. But I wouldn't guage the strength of a club pure and simply by the strength of its top division. A division does not make a "club". Let's put the top 10 players from every division of every Victorian club up against each other and see the result?  Oops, we can't. No-one else has as many divisions as us except maybe Croydon, but then you get to their C grade against our B grade. 

Coburg's div 2 and 3 would get killed by our equalivalent divs players. Only their div 1 would stand a chance, but then we could always recall Robbie Frank (10 in Aus, 1 in Vic), Hemming Hu (17 in Aus, 5 in Vic), Jessie Bricknell (25 in Aus) to our team  Add in Anna Du (12 in Aus Women), Danny Semmler (6 in Vic) and a host of very good but unranked players to choose the rest from and they wouldn't do so well then LOL.

[big ears]

3) Despite what biggy thinks about our 'Open', it really is 'Closed' to the majority of our players. Unless you are
(a) state-sponsored (ie, made the state team to go to the aus open),
(b) nominated for 'presidents' team, ie, a group of misc who make up a spare team
(c) external country)
you can't just sign up and play in the open. What all this means is the National list is restricted to the 'top' players from each state. So in a sense it's the same as England's open, just a broader scope due to less players (hence lower competition), lower standards from some states, etc

 Point taken, but my point really was to display the fact that more Australians as a percentage can enter the Aus open than English enter the 'English open' which is why there are more Australians with a world ranking. Basically if Greg Letts for example was English, he would not be world ranked because he would not have the opportunity to play in an ITTF ranking event, unless he was selected, and that would mean being in the English top 10 which is unlikely.

[Silver]

Your open sounds a lot like our closed - have to be selected to go.

No externals though - only get around 16? men and the same number of women...

[pingpongrob]

What has all of this got to do with "How good are these Players", Are we just trying to establish the BE is better than all of us, I just dont think it proves anything, as Table Tennis is about styles, The ability to have good serves, is countered by the ability to read the serves well.

We've seen clips of BE playing Greg Letts, We've seen clips of BE playing JKC, all's good.  We all understand that England has more depth than Australia, whether it has the same percentage of players per capita, only the statistitions can tell us.  The fact the Greg Letts beat BE, tells me that Greg Letts is better than BE "At a Time & place in History".  I lost to Brian Berry in the Tournamnet on Sunday 9-11 in the 5th, So Brian was better than me "at a time and place in History" and we know that Brian is in the whereabouts of the BE/GL Standard, so by your assumption, I must also be there - Dont you think so.  Having rambled on, I will also Re-State my previous comments, our Very own SupaChop would 100% beat Wiggy, on a good day and a bad day - And he has lots of them.

As for Tristan, Welcome and sorry I didnt greet you earlier (I've had a lot on my plate lately), DiamondInvest - welcome aboard, I have not been out to Diamond Valley, but have met a few of the players at the Vets Tournament - I hope you are getting plenty of use out of your new Table Tennis Table, and hope one day that we meet in a Tournament.

[speedplay]

Rob, by using your logic, I would still beat you, as I beat a player who then beat a guy who recently made his debut in the Pingisliga here, so by your logic, I'm of the same level as those guys. Heck, my use of it is even stronger as it is based on a win, while yours is based on a loss.

On a more serious note, unless you make continuosly the same results as GL/BF, then no, you are not of the same level as they are. One fly don't make the summer.

[pingpongrob]

Rob, by using your logic, I would still beat you, as I beat a player who then beat a guy who recently made his debut in the Pingisliga here, so by your logic, I'm of the same level as those guys. Heck, my use of it is even stronger as it is based on a win, while yours is based on a loss.

On a more serious note, unless you make continuosly the same results as GL/BF, then no, you are not of the same level as they are. One fly don't make the summer.

Yes Speedplay you are correct, and I diagnosed my mates illness - it still dont make me a doctor. I'm sure you'd beat me concidering I so bad at playing LP's these days.

Anyway, I have no Idea what the standard is like in your Competition, since you dont have a camera & even worse a fast enough computer to upload it - So we will just have to keep Guestimatinggggggg.

[blocker]

Anyway, I have no Idea what the standard is like in your Competition, since you dont have a camera & even worse a fast enough computer to upload it - So we will just have to keep Guestimatinggggggg.

lol - Rob you have to be more gentle and understanding with out friend Speedplay. Sweden is a technological backwater - whilst most of the population have Volvos, very few people there have video cameras let alone fast computers. give Speedy a few years to catch up and I am sure he will post a clip of himself playing. 

[blocker]

I lost to Brian Berry in the Tournamnet on Sunday 9-11 in the 5th, So Brian was better than me "at a time and place in History" and we know that Brian is in the whereabouts of the BE/GL Standard, so by your assumption, I must also be there - Dont you think so. 

when assessing standards we need to go by results but we need to go by ALL results, not just the best ones. If Rob losing to Brian 9-11 in the 5th is typical of his overall performances then yes he is of the BE/GL standard but from what I have seen (via rankings, pennant and Vets results, etc) this does not appear to be the case.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

LOL, this is getting confusing because everyone is claiming that its someone else's logic or assumption that if player A beats player B and player B beats player C that A should be able to beat C. As Rob said correctly, TT is about styles as well as levels. It is also about "a time and place in history" when it comes to results. But there is no guarantee that A will beat C or even beat B again next time they play. In fact the only way to know 100% for sure is for a game to happen. No-one can actually claim anything would be the case 100% until it actually IS the case. If you think you can, put up a one way bet for every asset you have and every cent you can borrow on it, will you still be so confident?

[blocker]

LOL, this is getting confusing because everyone is claiming that its someone else's logic or assumption that if player A beats player B and player B beats player C that A should be able to beat C. As Rob said correctly, TT is about styles as well as levels. It is also about "a time and place in history" when it comes to results. But there is no guarantee that A will beat C or even beat B again next time they play. In fact the only way to know 100% for sure is for a game to happen. No-one can actually claim anything would be the case 100% until it actually IS the case. If you think you can, put up a one way bet for every asset you have and every cent you can borrow on it, will you still be so confident?

This is why we can't go on just one result. Of course someone can have a great day and someone can have a crap day but its the OVERALL results which give an accurate guide to someone's standard. On occasion even I have pushed decent players but this is not indicative of my standard or commensurate with my other performances. The fact that BE almost never loses to players lower than his general ranking standard says a lot IMHO.