Double inverted practice...

[speedplay]

Speedy I dont doubt that some bats/rubbers can suit a player but I am dubious about the extent to which it aids their game - especially amongst non-elite players (we will exclude the broad difference of using LP to smooth here). Of course we have been through all this before so I wont rehash it. I will however add a fresh observation. In this forum (which I enjoy) there has been so much written about bats and rubbers - what they are good for, how they help certain types of styles or strokes, how important it is to have a hard outer layer on a 7 ply bat if one is using tacky rubber, how certain LP's don't go with certain carbon blades etc. etc.- but amazingly I have read virtually nothing about stuff like technique or practice drills - and it is these things which have 1000 times greater impact on a non-elite players game than the equipment they use.

In any case, its all fun so just forgive me if I make the occasional EJ quip. 

 

No wonder you haven't read anything about technique, cause we already have it nailed, as we are all at least B grade at Dandenong
 
Since I'm currently changing my game by quite a bit, it is hard to tell if T05 have affected my level or not, but I know that with T05 I can loop against heavy backspin with a much higer % then I used to be able to. I can also add more spin to my loops, which in it self isn't a great achievement, but it does allow me to vary my spin more, which is really important.
 
Aslo, as Reb mentioned, a lot of it is in the head and if the set up feels good, we are more likely to play good with it. I hate blades with vibrations in them and I don't like the "clonky" feeling on blades with hard outer layers.
 
With this said, I've stayed faitful to the Wavestone since ~3 years ago, Nittaku Best Anti on the bh for the last 2 years and if it wasn't for the price of T05, I would remain faitful to that for along time. How ever, with the current price, I'm forced to look for alternatives. I still agree that the difference in level depending on what rubber I use should be very minor.

[blocker]

No wonder you haven't read anything about technique, cause we already have it nailed, as we are all at least B grade at Dandenong

lol - Funny thing is that I was actually going to say something similar in my last post. Sometimes it is like everyone here has a fully-formed game and if only we could find the right set up we would all be at the top level. 

Like you, I also like to feel comfortable with the equipment I use and like you I hate blades with vibrations in them. However I don't kid myself into believing that, for example, if I used a rocket carbon bat with supercharged Tenergy then my loop would become more powerful (I'm not saying you believe this btw) - because it wouldn't. If I got fitter and improved dodgy elements in my timing and technique then I would have more power. (I remember reading a post on another thread which expressed amazement that a certain player could hit a FH so hard using the set-up he did. If you have good timing and technique you can hit hard with a shoe.)

An air-spoiler or fancy tyres don't make a ride-on mower go any faster. I suspect some players of a, let us say, sub-elite standard, believe their equipment affects their game far more than it actually does.   

[big ears]

(I remember reading a post on another thread which expressed amazement that a certain player could hit a FH so hard using the set-up he did. If you have good timing and technique you can hit hard with a shoe.)

Never a truer word spoken, at times people seem to forget how light a TT ball is, and how powerful a human arm is in comparison, there is a massive overlap in the range of control vs power, with the lack of pace of a set up being easy to compensate for by adding power (from the technique) and the lack of control tempered by the easing off and fine tuning skills of the player.

[speedplay]

Now, this is what always gets to me, the argument that a lack of pace can be compensated with good technique, casue my technique is the same regardless of what I use, so a faster blade/rubber combination will allow me to make faster shots. Sure, improving my technique would probably help more, but for guys with perfect technique (not saying I'm one of them!) there is still a litte something extra to get with fast rubbers.

Me, since I started late, I lack a lot in technique and use a fast combination to make up for some of this. I've never had any problems with the touch game, not because I'm a natural talent in this department but because at the level I play, the touch game doesn't need to be perfect.

Having used the same set up for some time now (at least Wavestone and Best Anti) I can also say that for a change to be beneficial, the new stuff have to be a lot better, cause the consistency one get by sticking to the same set up is worth a lot.

[big ears]

the onus is really on technique, the better your technique , including footwork, the better you are equipped to play with fast gear, the confusion can arise because passive play Blocking/fishing, can seem easier with fast equipment because it can make up for lack of technique. There is a massive difference between being re-active, and Pro-active, and with a set up that is harder to control, a player is more likely to have to be re-active (passive) in order to control an incoming ball.
Its also why a real fast set up feels great when you are just knocking the ball around, or playing an easy player that allows you time, but terrible when you play a player who can put your game under pressure. A winner is a winner, it matters notthat its a faster one, but matters immensely that its consistent.
 so looking at technique, my b/hand topspin is pretty solid, right up to a high level. If I play with something too quick I can't hit the table, being pro-active, so my set up is quite slow, yet my shot is more powerful in terms of spin and speed than many players I play against, (because of technique) I can compensate if i use slower rubbers, but can't If I use too quick, because my comnsistency drops, as soon as that starts happening, I stop playing positive strokes and start playing blocks/ rolls tentative stuff.

 Confusion also reigns when players have not yet reached the level where they can 'see the game' early enough to be pro-active, so spend most of the time reacting anyway or trying to force the ball. To be pro-active allows a player to 'borrow the power' from an opponent, only achievable if he/she has time to play a stroke, as against just having time to get bat to ball. 'Borrowing the power' means utalising the power on the incoming ball to increase your own by slowing your contact speed (so making for easier timing)
As an example, lets say the maximum safe speed before missing the table is 10

If you opponent hits the ball at you at the speed of 8, you only need to apply 6 to get equal safe power. YOUR SHOT WILL STILL BE AT THE SPEED OF 8. By going for anymore power than that, you are just risking consistency without any need. Far too many players don't know about this, and that is why they are inconsistent. The further away from 10 you are, the more consistent your game will be and the greater time you will have for everything.

[blocker]

I agree with BE. There are a couple of other things which may also help.

1 - If you can't hit a 'good' or 'solid' or 'powerful' loop with a medium speed bat (lets say a Stiga all-round as a yardstick) you also can't hit a good or solid or powerful loop with a super fast carbon bat.

2- If you can hit a 'good' or 'solid' or 'powerful' loop with a super fast carbon bat you also can hit a good or solid or powerful loop with a medium speed bat.

What is stopping you from looping 'fast' or 'well' has nothing to do with a bat not being fast enough - it has to do with poor technique. If you have poor technique you could use a rocket-launcher and it would make little difference. So when Speedy wrote:

"Now, this is what always gets to me, the argument that a lack of pace can be compensated with good technique, casue my technique is the same regardless of what I use, so a faster blade/rubber combination will allow me to make faster shots."

I would suggest that if his technique is dodgy in the first place then the extra speed he believes he is getting is insignificant to the overall effectiveness of the shot. I'm sure Speedy feels the difference is significant but I doubt whether the guy up the other end of the table thinks the same way. The idea that a faster setup just automatically guarantees you faster shots of any consequence is a myth.

The other thing to consider (and one which was implied in BE's response) is that of dwell-time on the rubber. The faster the equipment the less dwell-time on the rubber. If your technique/timing is not absolutely spot on this less dwell-time will result in less spin, a flatter arc and less control on the loop. A loop is a complicated shot - you have to synchronize a whole range of factors to do it effectively - footwork, balance, preparation, legs, weight transference, pivot from the hips, shoulder turn, elbow and wrist moving at the right time throughout the shot, timing the on-coming ball and reading the spin etc etc - no wonder it takes a while to learn properly! If you throw a reduced dwell-time into the mix it just makes the process that much more difficult and a player without a fully developed loop often ends up compromising his shot and not learning it properly.

[big ears]

Nice post blocker, we are saying the same things, you put it so eloquently though.

[speedplay]

You can out it which ever way you want, cause I still maintain that a faster set up allows for faster shots, as long as you can commit to the shot. I have no problems commiting to my shots and I know that the speed I get with my current set up is a lot faster then it used to be with Joola Cat (all+) blade I was using before, and that this is noticed on noth sides of the table. Is it as fast as Biggy's shot, with his slow crappy set up? Probably not, cause he have better technique, but should this be read out as I'm not allowed to use faster equipment then he does, because he have better technique then me?

What I do agree on is that faster equipment isn't an instant fix and if you use something that you can not control and is forced to hold back on your shots to land them on the table, then a slower set up would probably allow you to hit faster shots, but this isn't the case for me. My technique is equally crappy with a slow set up, so I use a faster set up to compensate for my lack in technique, when it comes to generating good speed, but the set up is not holding me back as I can still go for the shots I want to go with.


Look at the pro's, I think we can safely assume that they all have a technique suitbale for A level in Dandenong, but they still use fast equipment, now why is that? You guys speak so highly about compensating with better technique instead. I'm not even pretending to be any where near the pro's technique, but I've found that my game works better with a faster set up and the thing is, this is also true for my re-active shots. It's not like a fast set up makes me play more re-active shots then a slow set up, cause if I have the time, I have it regardless of my set up, but if I don't have the time, it's easier for me to play with the faster set up. This could perhaps be because I often play away from the table, but with a slower set up, I need time to make an effort my self to not go short, but with the faster set up, it is enough for me to get my bat to the ball to return it on the table. When I play up close, it's all about the angle of the blade, but the fast set up allows me to make faster returns.

[big ears]

Look at the pro's, I think we can safely assume that they all have a technique suitbale for A level in Dandenong, but they still use fast equipment, now why is that?

 Because they can, without losing consistency, they don't lose consistency, because from an early age, their stroke production/ technique has been moulded to a very high level through years and years of repetitive drilling, even as an established pro, they have to keep training full time to maintain this. For You, Me Blocker Reb, Rob etc, its a fine line between getting more 'power' and losing control. With more control, you have a greater margin of error with your shots, you still need power however, that is accepted, but not overkill, often, and in general, at levels below pro, its the consitency of a player that sets them apart. The main exception I can think of in a few cases, is a player who has developed superb serves, and bases his game on a third ball concept, they often are not good rallyers and want to get the point over with, the serves help them to achieve this.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I have to agree with Speedplay on a personal level here. I use fast equipment because I love to blast the ball past or through my opponent and I am pretty consistent in doing so (and have done so since I was a kid).Could I play as well with slower equipment...perhaps...although I tried it for a while and it really didn't suit me, and most of all I enjoyed it less. And I play the game for enjoyment, so I use what I enjoy.

 If your technique is not consistent though, then it can be an iffy proposition. For someone learning the game I would never recommend fast equipment. And I would never disagree that someone can play well with slower equipment below pro level by good placement. I generally use good placement more than power off my BH with my pips. It is the contrast between BH speed and FH speed that makes a lot of my opponents struggle. I beat a seasoned defender last Thursday night 4-0 who I'd previously only beaten once 4-3. This guy backs off the table to the boundary against attackers and "fishes" the ball back really well. With me he can't get my FH smashes back. I probably only laid about 10-12 smashes on him for the match, but I didn't miss a single one so all those points went to me and made a big difference in each set. And the threat of my FH keeps him mainly to my BH and weary of allowing me to step around it, which I am not generally good at. I did step around one and smashed it through him and he said "hey, since when do you step around that far!". When I play consistently on my BH as well as FH I can beat him. When I play inconsistently, he wins. My playing partner has a weaker smash which this guy can retrieve and play back until he makes a mistake. He beat my partner 4-0, even though my partner wins a much higher percentage than I do in general. This is mainly because he has a 2 wing looper style that is quite consistent and most people find harder to beat. He can generally put his smash or loop past someone with placement and medium power. Which illustrates that this is overall probably more effective, but it comes down to styles and what way you enjoy playing I think. If I beat people playing the way I enjoy, its great. If I lose, oh well, I still prefer playing the way I do.

[blocker]

We may have slightly got at cross-purposes here. I have tried fast carbons before and I must say they are delicious for playing flat counterhit/smash type shots with. Of course you might lose some control with your touch shots and blocking but if play a flattish counter game then it could well be worth putting up with these shortcomings. I imagine fast carbons could also compliment anti quite well.   

What I was specifically talking about was the relationship with fast carbons to fast/powerful loops. A powerful loop is not like a smash where you just hit the ball flat and hard. A power loop is a combination (amongst other things) of power/speed AND spin. The spin makes the ball arc and dip and it is because this that one can 'launch' into the ball even if it has heavy backspin or slightly below net height at the point of contact. Without sufficient spin it is simply not possible to do decent power loops no matter how fast your equipment is and no matter how big your biceps are. Faster equipment might make the ball come off your bat quicker but it won't make you loop more powerful if you lack the technique/timing to produce the right amount of spin to speed ratio to make the ball arc and dip.    If you lack the technique the less dwell-time on the faster bat magnifies the problem making the plane of the loop much flatter and the dip of the ball less pronounced. This in turn also leads to a sharp drop in consistency. Furthermore, if you haven't yet reached the stage where you can consistently loop any backspin ball over the net (possibly the most important step a player can make) then the reduced dwell-time will make this shortcoming even worse.

So when Speedy says - "I still maintain that a faster set up allows for faster shots" - he is perfectly correct if he is talking about counterhits and smashes. However with looping all faster equipment does is make the ball come off the bat quicker and this means little if you lack the technique and timing to make the ball arc and dip when you hit it more powerfully. So with looping a faster set-up doesn't 'compensate for my lack in technique', it needs technique.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Now I am in agreeance with this totally Blocker. While some people would call my smash a loop at times (well Rob's view of Supachop's "loop" in the infamous vid here would lol) it is most certainly not the sort of loop that is hit from below the table (maybe below the net at times tho as I do get the ball to dip at the end). But yes speed can overcome spin and stop the dip occurring quickly enough if the equipment is too powerful for the technique for sure. I can hit a loop from beneath the table with my equipment, but its is a slower loop and usually I load it with some side spin which tends to make it harder to deal with and sometimes results in a miss from the opponent if they mis-read the spin. While it doesn't ruin your game totally having the wrong equipment, having equipment suiting your game does help IMO.

[speedplay]

The funny thing is, my "best" shot is probably the powerful loop drive and I can drive it from below table height. I don't think this is all about the speed of the set up, but also about the hardness of it. I've tried slower, but harder, blades then Wavestone and I had a terrible time trying to loop with those. I could make a spin oriented loop, but as soon as I tried to add more power, the ball went long. I don't have this problem with the Wavestone, despite it being faster.

I agree that smash and loop are very different from each other and when it comes to smashing/flat hitting, you can just blast away and a fast set up will help you in this department.

The things is, as soon as some one admits to have some technical difficulties, you all seem to think that we can't play at all. Well, I have technical difficulties and I do considermy self a hack who barely can play the game, but I do know tha basic strokes and I'm able to hit them with decent consistency. My main probelm is that I lack in the speed generating department. This is where a fast set up helps me. Does it make me miss more shots? It's possible, but the I think it still gives me and advantage, cause when they are on, they are usually winners, while if I played with a slower set up, I might be forced to hit more, which would increase the chance of me missing, so despite a higher %, I might still end up missing more shots, if you get what I mean here.

[blocker]

The things is, as soon as some one admits to have some technical difficulties, you all seem to think that we can't play at all.

This is not the case with me BUT I wouldn't be surprised if I have seriously underestimated where your game is currently at. Not having seen a clip of you I guess I have developed a sort of mental idea of your level based on what you have said about yourself and how you think you would go against others. I suspect you probably lean towards a modest self-assessment and this could in turn have led to a misjudgement on my part.

Hurry up and post a clip of yerself so we can actually see you play!

 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Blocker, you really don't know Speedplay. Speedplay and Modest do not belong on the same sentence 

I have been encouraging him to post a new vid for years and it hasnt happened. If your encouragement works, then you are either very influential or flukey LOL.

Personally when I play TT it never occurs to me to take video really, and I do have a cam. So Speedplay who doesnt have one, I can understand not thinking to take vid when he plays 

And Speedplay I doubt there are many people who play technically perfectly all the time. Admitting you have some imperfections doesn't mean you can't play.

Now Blocker you live in Melbourne, so when are you going to have a hit with us? Come to the hallowed halls of Dandy one Sunday.

[speedplay]

Blocker, as much as I hate to admit it, Reb is right, me and modest don't go well together, but, I do have high demands before I judge some one as anything else but a beginner. Not sure how familiar you are with the Usatt rating system, but according to me, you stop being at the beginners level once you pass 2000, which according to a lot of U.S members is when you are becoming an advanced player. So chanses are, while I think I'm pretty crappy, I could very well be better then U.S player's who think they are close to being advanced players. How ever, this shouldn't be confused with modesty, as I'm sure I would be able to play in Dandenong A grade

As for the videos, I've said it time and time again, I would love to watch my self play, I would love to show it to you guys to get recommendations on what I should work on and what I should do to improve, but, no one arounds here want's to be caught on video and as Reb said, I don't have a camera and if I did, I currently don't even have a computer that I could upload it to, so, if you are waiting for a video, I think you are in for a long wait

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Speedplay how are you on the forums without a computer? Phone? Phone with video cam in it perhaps? lol

[blocker]

Now Blocker you live in Melbourne, so when are you going to have a hit with us? Come to the hallowed halls of Dandy one Sunday.

Reb you goose, I can't play at Dandy! You have to be top 200 in the World just to get in the car park let alone the centre itself. Besides, you got me quakin in me boots with the unbridled power of your Gergely carbon. What time are you there on Sundays?

[speedplay]

Speedplay how are you on the forums without a computer? Phone? Phone with video cam in it perhaps? lol

I never said I didn't have a computer, I said I didn't have a computer that I could upload it to. I'm currently using a very old lap top with close to zero space on the hard disc, that is why I couldn't possibly upload anything to it.

[blocker]

While some people would call my smash a loop at times (well Rob's view of Supachop's "loop" in the infamous vid here would lol)

Reb, I don't care what no one says - that Supachop shot was a "loop"! It had so much topspin on it I could barely read the "Nittaku" logo on the ball.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Reb you goose, I can't play at Dandy! You have to be top 200 in the World just to get in the car park let alone the centre itself. Besides, you got me quakin in me boots with the unbridled power of your Gergely carbon. What time are you there on Sundays?

Blocker I know people. I could sneak you past the guards! I don't go often on a Sunday, but if you wanted to experience the raw power of the Gergely it'd be around 2pm. Let me know if you want to have a hit and I'll start making the necessary bribes!

[blocker]

Blocker I know people. I could sneak you past the guards! I don't go often on a Sunday, but if you wanted to experience the raw power of the Gergely it'd be around 2pm. Let me know if you want to have a hit and I'll start making the necessary bribes!

Reb, kind of you to try to sneak me in but my schedule makes it difficult to commit. Maybe if you are going down for a casual hit with someone else then let me know and I will try to make it if I can.

You've got me terrified of the Gergely carbon power and personally I don't think it's fair that someone should be able to use equipment which makes such an overwhelming difference to their game.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Reb, kind of you to try to sneak me in but my schedule makes it difficult to commit. Maybe if you are going down for a casual hit with someone else then let me know and I will try to make it if I can.

You've got me terrified of the Gergely carbon power and personally I don't think it's fair that someone should be able to use equipment which makes such an overwhelming difference to their game.

All's fair in war and TT! And I thought your opinion was that equipment doesn't make much difference to a person's game? So why would my poor little Gergely scare you LOL 

And I actually ended up at the club today for an hour and a half's hitting. I'll try to let you know when I'm going next on a Sunday, but I often go on the spur of the moment if I go.

[blocker]

And I thought your opinion was that equipment doesn't make much difference to a person's game? So why would my poor little Gergely scare you LOL 

Reb, if you say the dreaded Gergely gives you an amazing array of added powers then who am I to doubt you. I suspect the Gergely has a similar effect on you as the Super Sauce had on Super Chicken

[speedplay]

Nostalgia moment, the good ol' days when Blocker was still around...

Any way, I'm back playing double inverted again

Not because of the yearly itch to do it, it's a couple of months to early for that, but due to my knee injury. Funny, I've always read that you should use junk rubbers when your ability to move decreases, but insted, I find that I can't play my regular game with the injury, but I'm playing pretty decent with a double inverted set up.

Just got back from playing and had some hard fought matches with one of the top guys from the local league. Considering I went unbeaten through the entire season, this might not be to impressive, but I'm pleased with the result, since my injury holds me back a lot. The main advantage I get from practicing while injured is that I can't rely on my fh any more, as I simply can't step around to use it, so I'm forced to use my inverted bh a lot more then ever before. I've already seen signs of improvements and my bh loop is actually becomming pretty consistent. Carries lots of spin, but still lacks in the speed department. But, it's finally becomming a useful tool for me, even in the offensive parts of the game.

Any way, mostly posting due to the nostalgy, but feel free to add your input in this dead topic

[pingpongrob]

Nostalgia moment, the good ol' days when Blocker was still around...

was that a slip of the wagging tongue.  You meant sarcastic old days dont you.

[speedplay]

Nope, I meant the good ol' days as I enjoyed having Blocker around. He knew what he was talking about and was actually really good at judging the level of players from watching clips, something we all know to well how hard that is.

Al though he at times where sarcastic, I could enjoy it and he always made for great discussion material, raising some intresting points.