Equipment vs technique?

[speedplay]

Yes, we all know that equipment is important and that some equipment is better suited for one style fo play while other equipment is better suited for another style of play.

How ever, it really pi**es me of when some people claim that you need high throw rubbers to flip against heavy backspin and that you need low throw rubbers to make powerful drives and stuff like that.

So, I'm wondering, are you guys with me on this or do you feel that equipment really is that important? I mean, even the lowest throwing rubber in the world would be possible to flip a back spin serve with, while the highest throwing rubber would be able to perform the perfect loop drive, right?

[big ears]

Ha Ha, nice thread Speedy, I know exactly what you are referring to. The EJ's lose sight of reality. Fliping with a high throw or low throw rubber is purely down to an adjustment of batface angles, as is blocking, looping chopping, infact anything. What is important to remember, is that the characteristics of a rubber not only affect what you can do to a given ball, but also affect how the ball will react off the rubber as it contacts INCOMING spin and pace. I have memories of the cleaning agent spinmax, how it is superb at increasing the frictional co-efficient of a rubber, great, you can put more spin on, but everyone forgot, it also made incoming spin more difficult to handle.

[Silver]

lies. it's all about equipment.
In fact, next week I'm getting a new special manufacturer prototype that throws high when you flick, has immense speed and throws low when you powerloop, causes wobble when you chop, produces massive amounts of spin when you brush, is completely anti against incoming spin and can drop the ball over the net when you push from anywhere on the table.

[blue_smartie68]

Hahahaha Silver 
I'll have one too! 

As for your question Speedy... what biggy said!

[speedplay]

Certainly wouldn't mind having that Silver!

Biggy, when you're right, you're right. I'm just getting so tired of reading suggestions for equipment changes when some one says they have a problem with a certain shot. Try telling people (on forums) that you have serious problems returning a side spin serve and I'll bet ya, you will get suggestions to try LP/Anti pretty fast, as this would solve your problems.

[Der Echte]

Problem is, that a LOT of players are not in a good TT situation to begin with. I surely wasn't for 3 years, until last year when I moved to Korea. Of course equipment can make a difference with a player's preferences, but it all comes down to adjusting for the conditions. That is whta gets a lot of players, myself included. I adjusted to Outlaw's lowish throw, but after several months of using T05 as the main FH weapon, when I get a low throw rubber on Fh, I hit the net a lot until I adjust, which is mighty reluctant. Humans have an inhearent Resistance to Change. I call it the RTC factor. Every enterprise (especially the larger and more established ones) experience this. ferw desire to change after getting accustomed to something and it can spell death, depending on the profession. Failing to be adaptive is a no-go in almost any profession or business.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Biggy who really loses sight of reality? The person who has skill perhaps loses sight of the fact that those with less skill (either less time to develop it or just naturally less coordination or perhaps even injury or impairment) may struggle to perform certain strokes or do them near perfect enough. Some equipment may improve the situation for them. There may be no equipment that will help some people as they just don't have the talent, no matter the coaching they receive.  Even professionals  with near perfect skills use and change to different equipment. Not as much as an EJ of course, but then they have more insight to their game already and more access to information on what's likely to work for them.

Obviously the perfect blend of equipment and technique is the best aim if playing the best possible TT is the aim. But some people play for pure fun and to part of the fun is to experience different equipment. And without some of these people around the rest of us would have less information to go on to make our choices. I know I have appreciated Silver's (and others) knowledge in the past when I've wanted new equipment.

Somehow I think we've all had this discussion before though. 

[big ears]

does Reb work for butterfly?   Actually Reb, I passionately believe that most problems with touch can be overcome quite easily, its just that many don't know what to do. I have no problem with darkside rubbers at all and my answer was not directed at them, I just don't agree with the concept of 'buying success' it never works, and i can never understand how players can switch equipment frequently and play well. Regarding sponsored players, they switch rubbers frequently but only of the same genre, and in anycase when you play 40 hours a week you adapt very quickly, not many that I know like to change blades though.

[speedplay]

Reb, I don't think Biggy meant it that way and I know I didn't.

The thing is, some people prefer high throw rubber while others prefer low throw rubbers to suit their game and this is all perfectly fine. How ever, when people claim that you MUST have a high throw rubber to be able to perform a flick, that really pi**es me off!

Any shot that you can make with Tenergy is doable with Sriver as well but the end result might not be exactly the same, but it is possible to loop against a heavy chop with Sriver as well. In fact, I don't think it is that much harder to do, because, as Biggy mentioned, a rubber that is good at generating spin is also affected by the incoming spin. This gives to hand, if you are doing it correctly, Tenergy will reward you with more spin then Sriver, but if you aren't doing it correctly, Sriver is more forgiving as it isn't as affected by the incoming spin as Tenergy.

Equipment is never the solution (talking about regular inverted here) to any technical problems you might have. Pips and Anti might help you some, but the bottom line is, if you have problems with some specific shot, you need to work harder on them rather then to search for a rubber that will do it for you.

[pingpongrob]

Reb is% correct on this one, The talented ones will always adapt to most rubbers, for sure there will be a preferance, but their feel & skill makes it easy to adapt.  On the other hand, there are plenty of players that simple dont understand Bat angle, Touch, Feel etc.  These player will always use the characteristics of a rubber or blade to help there game, these player most likely wont understand what a flick is.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

No Biggy I don't work for Bty. I wouldn't use an Andro rubber if I did LOL.

If it was a perfect world and everyone could develop perfect strokes then there would only be need for one kind of inverted rubber. *cough* but as we well know the need (whether real or created) for different inverted rubbers extremely broad. There wouldn't be 10,000 varieties of inverted rubber on the market otherwise (and yes I do acknowledge it is marketing which creates some of this "need"). Even people who think equipment won't overcome a stroke issue they are having, have a preference for a particular rubber over another though. Why do they have that preference? Because one rubber feels superior to others they have tried and therefore "suits" their game better. This is a refined use of equipment by skilled players. Much less skilled players will find rubbers that suit their game better than others too. These players tend to need to find a more "perfect fit" for their game than a highly skilled player though as they don't have the adaptability.

TT is a lot about feeling ON as we know. If a certain rubber gives a player the best feel they have known, then they are likely to play better with it. Does it overcome a problem shot? Maybe. Or maybe they just convince themselves THIS rubber is the only one that will do that shot for them. When it comes down to it, if it works for them, then its all good.

[big ears]

I agree, the problem starts though when every new rubber feels better, or gives a feeling of false confidence, as we know the EJ holy grail chaser never gives up and more often than not stays the same standard. I am speaking as a coach of course, others see things differently, 99% of the time IMO, things can be sorted out and improved without messing about with equipment, infact there is a lot of players who never get 'as one' with their set up because they don't play long enough with it without changing something. Last time I broke my blade, it took me about a year before I felt comfortable with my new blade, and guess what, it was the same make, same model.

[pingpongrob]

Last time I broke my blade, it took me about a year before I felt comfortable with my new blade, and guess what, it was the same make, same model.

It took a whole year  , Then Supachop and I are definetely doing the wrong thing - we change blades on a daily basis.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

a lot of players who never get 'as one' with their set up because they don't play long enough with it without changing something.

Yeah at some stage it pays to stop and smell the rubber lol.  I think it can pay to experiment a bit though (especially for new or returning players), otherwise you may miss out on something that may suit your gamestyle better (especially if first choice was either a premade or a poor recommendation).

I don't know if its coincidence (but I suspect not), but I have used basically the same setup for over 18 months now and have won 4 premierships, advanced 2 divisions in each of my leagues (seniors and masters) and have people who used to feel confident in beating me now struggling to take a set. I think most of this is due to improved technique, but started by finding suitable equipment first. I think confidence plays a pretty big part too though. I guess confidence falls under technique in the technique v equipment equation.

[speedplay]

Not to sure about that Reb, you need to feel confidence in your equipment as well as in your technique.

I see nothing wrong with experimenting some, and I think even Biggy agrees with this, as long as it is with in reason. There is no point in constantly changing between extremely fast and extremely slow rubbers and there is no point in changing between tacky and grippy all the time.

Since I found my equipment I've found that I always trust my equipment and I know what to expect from it. This have improved my ability to return fast drives, where I barely have time to react, cause my body knows what I need to do to return the ball, since it knows how the rubber performs.

My most recent change was from Roxon 450 to Tenergy 05 and I'm still struggling some with the T 05 as I'm not yet fully used to it, but I still felt it suited my game even better then the Roxon 450 did.

[big ears]

It took a whole year  , Then Supachop and I are definetely doing the wrong thing - we change blades on a daily basis.

 Then I submit, you both must have far more talent than I do.

[pingpongrob]

Then I submit, you both must have far more talent than I do.

Maybe Supachop has, but for sure I don't.  I'll try and stick with my current blade for at least a month - I'll see what happens.

[speedplay]

As for the blade thing, I have to agree with Biggy on this. Sure, I can change blade a couple of times during one session and still play reasonably well with all of them, but to really feel comfortable with a blade takes quite some time. I made a 3 month long switch from the Wavestone to the Juic Kiso Hinoki blade, and while I loved that blade, as soon as I got my hands on the Wavestone again, it felt like coming home.

The process with rubbers are much shorter (for me) as it usually only takes a couple of weeks to adjust to them, even if there are benefits to sticking with them for a longer time. I can now pull off blocks with the Best Anti that I've never been able to do before, not because the Best Anti is such a superior rubber but simply because I've stayed with if for such a long time I feel comfortable using it.

[blocker]

call me old-fashioned but in my experience the better the player the less they talk about equipment. as long as the equipment is suitable to their style they tend to just get on with the job - practice hard and work on their technique.

[pingpongrob]

call me old-fashioned but in my experience the better the player the less they talk about equipment. as long as the equipment is suitable to their style they tend to just get on with the job - practice hard and work on their technique.

I have to agree, but there is nothing wrong with experimentation - When I first started playing I had to use a certain rubber, and if I deviated from it, my shots would not land. I would use the properties to help my game, but with experience, I can now pickup anything and use its abilities to my advantage, Of course I have preferances.

Technique will always win, but the right equipment will fine tune technique, and visa versa.

[blocker]

I have to agree, but there is nothing wrong with experimentation - When I first started playing I had to use a certain rubber, and if I deviated from it, my shots would not land. I would use the properties to help my game, but with experience, I can now pickup anything and use its abilities to my advantage, Of course I have preferances.

Technique will always win, but the right equipment will fine tune technique, and visa versa.

maybe so, but I can't help thinking that most equipment-heads would be far better players if they spent less time obsessing about bats-n-rubbers and more time practicing diligently. I dont think i have ever come across an equipment-head where, for example, Sriver FX rather than Tenergy, would make more than 1% difference to their game (even though they are convinced it does). Imho one should just learn to play the game, buy suitable gear, and then just get on with it. but maybe i dont know too much.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

blocker there is a certain amount of truth in what you're saying but there also can be vast differences in equipment that can affect how someone plays. I use LP on my BH and about 3 weeks ago I changed to a different pip to what I'd been using for 18 months. Since then I have knocked over 9 players who I had not beaten prior to putting on this new pip. Now if it was 1 or 2 guys I'd put it down to coincidence. But that's 9 players out of about 15 played in total in that time in competition at a level where I've just moved into this season and every one of them has been at least one or more seasons ahead of me. I think you can certainly EJ too much, and giving equipment a chance to "bed down" before switching to something else is meritorious, but you can also flog a dead horse.

[blocker]

blocker there is a certain amount of truth in what you're saying but there also can be vast differences in equipment that can affect how someone plays. I use LP on my BH and about 3 weeks ago I changed to a different pip to what I'd been using for 18 months. Since then I have knocked over 9 players who I had not beaten prior to putting on this new pip. Now if it was 1 or 2 guys I'd put it down to coincidence. But that's 9 players out of about 15 played in total in that time in competition at a level where I've just moved into this season and every one of them has been at least one or more seasons ahead of me. I think you can certainly EJ too much, and giving equipment a chance to "bed down" before switching to something else is meritorious, but you can also flog a dead horse.

Reb - In the case of changing to different types of LP the difference can certainly be extreme and i take your point. I was more referring to attack-style equipment-heads who use reverse rubber.

[speedplay]

maybe so, but I can't help thinking that most equipment-heads would be far better players if they spent less time obsessing about bats-n-rubbers and more time practicing diligently. I dont think i have ever come across an equipment-head where, for example, Sriver FX rather than Tenergy, would make more than 1% difference to their game (even though they are convinced it does). Imho one should just learn to play the game, buy suitable gear, and then just get on with it. but maybe i dont know too much.

This holds a lot of merit, but, for those of us who begun playing seriously at a late stage (I begun when I was 30) it is a lot of fun to try different equipment. Will it make me a better player? Probably not, but my aim isn't to reach the top level, it's about having fun and trying to improve as much as I can. So, I've kept the same bat for a long time and the same bh rubber but recently switched (~4 months ago) to Tenergy 05 and I do believe it have helped my development some. Would I've been better of by sticking to the same set up? Most likely as I've begun to se the benefits of using the same equipment for a long time.

Still, even if the improvement is only in the head, the mind is a powerful thing and if I believe I'm getting better with a new rubber, chances are that I will actuall yplay better as well.

[pingpongrob]

maybe so, but I can't help thinking that most equipment-heads would be far better players if they spent less time obsessing about bats-n-rubbers and more time practicing diligently. I dont think i have ever come across an equipment-head where, for example, Sriver FX rather than Tenergy, would make more than 1% difference to their game (even though they are convinced it does). Imho one should just learn to play the game, buy suitable gear, and then just get on with it. but maybe i dont know too much.

You are right about some things, especially the 1% Sriver FX/Tenergy - I've seen it many times. But on the other hand, I have also seen players who have improved grades, with the right equipment.
I tend to experiment quite a bit, but that comes with the job (I never used to), It does affect my game, but it has also taught me the correct technique's.
A little experimenting can do good. Just dont go overboard.

[blocker]

You are right about some things, especially the 1% Sriver FX/Tenergy - I've seen it many times. But on the other hand, I have also seen players who have improved grades, with the right equipment.
I tend to experiment quite a bit, but that comes with the job (I never used to), It does affect my game, but it has also taught me the correct technique's.
A little experimenting can do good. Just dont go overboard.

I'm just a hacker so maybe there's a bit i don't see but i find it very hard to believe that a player can improve grades simply by changing equipment (i don't include LP etc here). I have been playing for over 30 years and i have never seen such a phenomenon. I also find it interesting that i have never come across a 'good' (non-LP) player who is an EJ. by all means experiment but I can't help feeling there is a placebo effect going on here.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Blocker you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. We haven't had someone new create such good discussion in quite a while. Kudos!!

Now that you have excluded LP from the discussion (well done lol), I would say there are certain reverse rubber changes that can happen to significantly improve a players game, but its going to be in specific circumstances this will happen. An example might be where a player is using a hard chinese rubber and has a euro style loop that he basically has a good stroke on, yet throws the ball long a lot. Change him to a softer sponged tensor or tenergy or something like that and suddenly his loops drop on the table more than they miss and he wins a lot more points. Now this isn't going to work for someone who just never had a reasonable technique in the first place, and its not going to work for someone who as you say goes from Sriver Fx to Tenergy. But there are cases of it happening. I've just thought of another one. There is an English player who ironically is called blocker on another forum. He has recently changed his BH rubber to Galaxy Apollo and found it suits him so well his weak BH he has now turned into a strength, all due to his confidence in the rubber.

Every case is different and players who change just because something else might solve their problem or raise them up and change again within weeks because it didn't, yes I totally agree its not going to make much difference to them (unless they actually do strike on something they like, stick with, and actually then develop with by doing the EJ thing to begin with).

EJ's have their purpose. They keep TT prices lower than they might be to start with because they increase sales volume and encourage competition in the market. They also like to tell people on forums about their stuff. Some of it can be mis-information, but get an EJ that knows their stuff, like Silver on this forum, and you got yourself a relatively unbiased source of good info. Everyone has a place in this world 

[speedplay]

Just like Blocker, I find it hard to believe that player becomes a whole grade better by changing equipment, as long as the change is with in the same rubber standard, one sheet of inverted for another sheet of inverted, the difference couldjn't be that big. How ever, a change from one kind of rubber, say inverted, to a different kind of rubber, like short pips, could drastically change some one's level.

But! And this is a big but, if a player finds a suitable set up, it might actually improve his development, so even if the perfect set up won't make the player raise in grades at once, it might help him to speed up the advancement.

I doubt I would be at the level I'm at, had I stayed with the Juic Couga that I used to use. I experimented for a while with Donic Platin, Andro Roxon 450 and 500 pro and now finally landed on the Tenergy 05 and these rubber's have certainly helped me improve as they have been slightly easier to use, they have given me confidence to loop more and by doing this, I've became a lot better a looping. So while the rubber isn't performing the loop it self, it have presented me to a different style which I have adapted and since then I've raised in level. Still nothing more then an advanced befinner, but I do hope I'm going to improve more, especially now that we have advanced one division so I will get to play better players all the time.

[blocker]

Reb-

I am sure different rubbers can be more suitable to different looping styles but euro loop or not if you can't loop effectively with a decent chinese rubber in the first place then i wouldnt be looking at the rubber but the player. if the ball is going off the end then simply adjust your technique and put some more spin on it! after all, its not like u r using a sandpaper bat. I have had so many EJ's with 5 or 6 'different' (and very expensive) bats/rubbers tell me that 'this one is really good for my...' and 'this one is better for my...'  etc. when i know perfectly well that the equipment makes almost no qualitative difference to their standard because their technique is fundamentally unsound.

In saying this I dont mean to deny EJ's a legitimate place in this world . Bless their hearts but i think their games would often benefit more if they improved their technique, or bent their back more, or didnt push so much etc rather than trying to imbue equipment with some sort of magical properties. Get your technique right, get suitable equipment and then get on with it!

[big ears]

I certainly hate having to change my equipment, but recent rule changes have made this a necessity. Having used sp/glue for so long, there has been a quest to find a suitable replacement and I play at a level where the use of sp/glue matters. I keep the same blade, I would only ever change my blade if i had to. Before sp/glue was banned, I could put literally anything on and play with it after a short period of adjustment, as long as it was reversed and at least 2mm sponge.