Long Pip Defender Versus All round player

[Der Echte]

I really like this thread. If this was going on at OOAK, I would be PMing Big Ears to build it up sum moar. I think Wiggy will come out on top with any encounter with Baal, but I think Baal will earn a lot of respect. Baal is no TT chump.

I really like Rob stating that working to defeat Big Ears is a motivation. There is one club member here in our city that always has a hard time coping with my game. He is not showing it, but absolutely HATES losing to me the way he does. He is training and moving up FAST. I think he will have his goal by the end of 2010, unless I start to improve more, which I am going in the right direction.

[big ears]

Have you played Baal Der?

[big ears]

this is a random clip picked off youtube, the guy in red is ranked 475 in English men, he would as of now, have no chance of beating me, and there are 1000's of players his standard.

Antony British League Table Tennis 6th Sep 09

how can I say that I would not lose to him? I rarely lose to anyone outside the top 200, never outside the top 300, and that is a fact.

[big ears]

I must say, I like chopfloat, he's somekind of dark art master, who keeps out of these exchanges, just dibbing in from time to time, the sure fire proof of a player who is confident of his ability.

 You have just got to get honest though Rob.

[Der Echte]

Played against Baal? No. I have seen you play some and know a bit about Baal's level. Unless he poses a wierd matchup style for you, I don't think he would win matches from you, but still feel he will show you a good set of skillz and earn respect.

[big ears]

Played against Baal? No. I have seen you play some and know a bit about Baal's level. Unless he poses a wierd matchup style for you, I don't think he would win matches from you, but still feel he will show you a good set of skillz and earn respect.

 He's already earned it off the table, where I find him to be one of the better posters on TT forums.

[blocker]

I was just having a look at some of the vids and came across this blog - an interesting discussion! i have to say that in almost all points i agree with big ears. for whats its worth here are a few a my observations on the topics discussed. (i) england would certainly seem to have far more depth than TT in australia. in aust the level starts to fall off DRAMATICALLY after about the top 20. (ii) i remember when jeff drew came to aust and im pretty sure he was ranked around 10. (ii) Jim Stamos was a reasonable junior (not a top one) with a nice style but stopped playing before he moved into the senior ranks. im pretty sure he was never a highly rated player here. at best he MAY been one of the lower rated players in A Grade; (iii) ive never seen big ears play but from what i have gleaned from his results he appears to be at a pretty decent level. Im guessing he would comfortably beat supachop (even tho i really like supachops game) and is possibly/probably better than craig campbell and jeff drew. I would also guess that he would be around 20ish in Australia although i could be wrong about this. (someone send me a link to vids of him); (iv) whilst I like Robs game and im sure he is improving rapidly i would be almost certain that big ears would beat him comfortably whether Robs likes to play his style or not. 

[speedplay]

I've finally grasped at what level Biggy play's at, at least, I got a rough idea about it and now I think that he would actually win rather comfortable against both Supachop and Rob. Now, he would still need to focus and I doubt he would trash them, but I have even bigger doubts that they would beat him.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

this is a random clip picked off youtube, the guy in red is ranked 475 in English men, he would as of now, have no chance of beating me, and there are 1000's of players his standard.

Antony British League Table Tennis 6th Sep 09

how can I say that I would not lose to him? I rarely lose to anyone outside the top 200, never outside the top 300, and that is a fact.

I wouldn't have said he would beat you either Biggy. The standard of this match looks similar to the A2 Masters comp I play, at best. And I am sure you are far better than me. I don't get why the guy in blue hasn't worked out a short serve against the guy in red except for the fact that the red looper does miss his loop a bit. Still I think a short spinny serve is always a good strategy against a looper like this.

I'm not sure I would agree with you blocker about there being a huge drop-off in standard after top 20 in Aus. Of course there will be a drop, but I think there is more depth than you give credit to. You only need to look at the results of the Australian Open to see the numbers of players that stack the shelves below the Henzell's, Han's, Gerada's, Frank's, Powell's,Tran's, Carter's and Davis', etc of the scene, Sure the top 10-20 are better. But there are a lot of good juniors like Hemming Hu , Jesse Bricknell and a host of others coming along as well. I doubt Supachop would rate near the top 20 in Aus despite that he is an excellent player. I don't think Gregg Letts gets in the top 20 either. In the 2009 Aus Open he lost to 13 players that included Berry, Pinkewich, Han and Gerada, but he didn't get far enough to play Henzell. Gregg Letts is of similar standard to Biggy. Danny Semmler is one of the best players in our club and I'm fairly certain he sits outside top 20 in Aus, yet he beat Paul Pinky in 2009 Open. There are other players of this standard or better like Sharad Pandit, Eric Tan, Adam Teague, etc. Our Rob is now playing in amongst some of these guys in his division at MSAC, although I bet he is getting his butt handed to him at times. But I doubt Rob would be a pushover for Biggy and neither would Supachop. There are around 60 players that play the top division at MSAC, Dandy and Croydon alone that while not as good as Gregg Letts, Danny Semmler and the like would (and do) push them. Danny doesn't win 100% every season, but does not GIVE a point away ever! He played one of his best mates in a tourney last year and beat him 11-0, 3 times straight!!
And I haven't even covered all the Vic clubs, without considering there is some good talent in other states as well.

Don't under-rate Australian TT. I also know from discusions with some members there, that my club at Dandy has a similar depth and structure to one of England's sizeable clubs Long-Eaton. If this is anything to go by, there is similarity down the ranks between Aus and England too. Just looking at this 475 player, we have a stack just like him or better in Dandy, and I'm sure many other Aus clubs would as well.

[blocker]

Reb, I wasnt suggesting that the players after about 20 (it could be 'about 25 or 30' - the point is still the same) were no good rather just that the depth falls away sharply and i suspect this is not the case in the UK. i can't find a detailed Austn ranking list on the web so i will take the current Victorian rankings to illustrate my point. (Victoria has traditionally had the greatest depth in Austn TT.) the players ranked 9-16 ish are already in a different class from the top handful even tho they are ok players. if you go a little further down the players ranked 20 and 21 - they are over 60 years old and would literally struggle to win a point off the top 7ish. that difference in class from 7 to 20 is astonishing and clearly illustrates a severe lack of depth. I would imagine that big ears would be somewhere around 8-14 in Victoria judging on what he has told us of his results. given that (i guess) Rob is ranked somewhere in the 80's I doubt he could give big ears too much trouble. this is not to say that Rob is not a decent player, it is just being realistic.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I don't know if Biggie would rank 8-14 in Victoria. I'd think he would rank 25-40 in Australia perhaps or could go out a little further even. I'm sure with some good juniors coming through here that could easily push out.  No doubt England has good juniors coming through also pushing him out there too. The only known factor is that Biggie and Gregg Letts played about 18 months ago now and they were on par with one another and Gregg would rate within Aus top 40 or so. I'm not sure if this can be used as an indicator of country depth versus country depth though. Now if you were to take China's no. 100 and rate them against Aus top 10, be a very different story!

[blocker]

Reb, if you dont think Big Ears would be ranked at least 8-14 in Vic where do you think he would be ranked? He would surely be much much better than Michael Ede and Mick Wright who are ranked 20 and 21! also, i wouldnt judge his standard by just one head-to-head encounter, especially if it was against a combo-bat player. His high UK ranking and the other performances he speaks of - such as being ranked higher than Jeff Drew when Jeff first came to Aust (Jeff was a very strong player in those days) - suggests that Big Ears is a player of some class. also, on the depth issue, don't you think the massive class difference between the top 7 Victorian ranked players and those ranked 20 suggests an extreme lack of depth? As for juniors coming thru, there are only 3 juniors ranked in the Victn top 38 at present. that is very low. remember, just because a player might LOOK good it doesnt mean that they are any good. cheers.   

[pingpongrob]

the players ranked 9-16 ish are already in a different class from the top handful even tho they are ok players. if you go a little further down the players ranked 20 and 21 - they are over 60 years old and would literally struggle to win a point off the top 7ish. that difference in class from 7 to 20 is astonishing and clearly illustrates a severe lack of depth. I would imagine that big ears would be somewhere around 8-14 in Victoria judging on what he has told us of his results. given that (i guess) Rob is ranked somewhere in the 80's I doubt he could give big ears too much trouble. this is not to say that Rob is not a decent player, it is just being realistic.

This is where I dissagree, lets take a look at Brian Berry - when we posted a video of us playing each other - the comments were that he's not a very good player, yet Brian in my mind would easily beat Wiggy, and is on par with Gregg Letts.
Dont let the rankings fool you too much, Personally I only play the veterans tournamnets and lose quite a few points with silly losses against combination players - Which although I have got better against - I still struggle, they always cost me lots of points.  The last time I played our N0.1 Veteran, he lost the first game - of course I lost overall because he is above me in standard.

This depth problem that everyone keeps stating is just that - Depth - if Brian and Gregg were to go over to the UK, I'm sure they would slot into the Top 10 Veterans over there.

2 week I have to play Gregg, well see what happens. I might get thrashed concidering he's a class Combination player - but then again so is Supachop.

[pingpongrob]

I must say, I like chopfloat, he's somekind of dark art master, who keeps out of these exchanges, just dibbing in from time to time, the sure fire proof of a player who is confident of his ability.

 You have just got to get honest though Rob.

Not sure what you mean about Honest - But I would say with great certainty, That I would beat the Kid in Red 3 Straight without a problem.
Not trying to give myself a big head - as its pointless, a Games a Game - no sheep stations to be won or lost. But I must say that you underate my level from the clips youve seen me play against combination players - and they are my real problems although I have overcome most these days - Even had one of the Vic selectors ask me how I went against the last antipower player - of course I beat him, yet he's a very difficult player.

Whenever I hit with out top ranked players they are always astounded by my improvement - Wiggy your level is stagnent, yet mine is improving by the week. Yes I still have  unexpected losses, but what do you expect from a 46 year old that on the busiest schedule you have ever seen.

[speedplay]

Wow, would be awesome if you could get a video of your clash against Gregg!

Also, I think it's a strange statement that Brian would beat Biggy easily, while being on par with Gregg as I think that Biggy is on par with Gregg. Sure, Gregg did win a couple of more sets when they played each other, but he didn't make great results against other player's in the U.K and lost to players who Biggy usually would beat.

Speaking of deepth, how long ago was it since William Henzell lost to a fellow country man? Now, don't get me wrong, Henzell is truly a great player, but to remain unbeaten for such a long time shows, to me, that there is a lack in depth.

[blocker]

I havent seen a video of Big Ears (is there one around?) but his results read pretty good.

Certainly the players ranked 9-16ish are decent players, they are just a class below the top few and would USUALLY not offer them serious resistance. (For eg, Bp is ranked 9 and is a very nice player and yet he is clearly not as strong as the players ranked 1-4.)  My point about depth actually concerned how dramatically the standard fell away after around 20 and that many players ranked over 20 would seriously struggle to win a point against the top 7 or so. surely this speaks to a distinct lack of depth?

As for not being fooled by rankings I'm afraid i'm a big believer that results don't lie. of course there can be isolated hiccups in rankings but this is usually due to insufficient matches having been played. At the end of the day though the overall win/loss bottom-line is always the best yardstick. many players look good or hit nice shots but they simply don't know how to win. Also, losing deuce or taking a game off a strong player or beating them in practice means little. better players frequently coast against weaker opponents and then simply try a bit harder when things get tighter. its the OVERALL win/loss performances in official competition that determines the strength of a player.

   

[pingpongrob]

Wow, would be awesome if you could get a video of your clash against Gregg!

Also, I think it's a strange statement that Brian would beat Biggy easily, while being on par with Gregg as I think that Biggy is on par with Gregg. Sure, Gregg did win a couple of more sets when they played each other, but he didn't make great results against other player's in the U.K and lost to players who Biggy usually would beat.

Speaking of deepth, how long ago was it since William Henzell lost to a fellow country man? Now, don't get me wrong, Henzell is truly a great player, but to remain unbeaten for such a long time shows, to me, that there is a lack in depth.

Biggy has played those players in the UK before, so has some idea of their serve's strenght's and weakness's, in fairness Gregg has not.
When they played each other it was a true indication of Both there levels, I would say comfortably that wiggy is a good player but not a great player, as a great player would have beaten Gregg comfortably.

Lots of players get close to Henzell, but just cant topple him at the moment. It must be his unique style that you talked about in the other thread.

[pingpongrob]

My point about depth actually concerned how dramatically the standard fell away after around 20 and that many players ranked over 20 would seriously struggle to win a point against the top 7 or so. surely this speaks to a distinct lack of depth?

Played Dennis Makaling just 2 weeks ago in our A1 league, and I can tell you that he had to work to win, There were no easy points (OK, some were easy).

I was Sh*t Scared playing him, but did quite well after all getting Duece in one of the games, and the rest were over 7. I'm sure the sweat on his forehead was from the hard match and not the Warm weather that we dont have at the moment.

[speedplay]

Biggy has played those players in the UK before, so has some idea of their serve's strenght's and weakness's, in fairness Gregg has not.
When they played each other it was a true indication of Both there levels, I would say comfortably that wiggy is a good player but not a great player, as a great player would have beaten Gregg comfortably.

Lots of players get close to Henzell, but just cant topple him at the moment. It must be his unique style that you talked about in the other thread.

I do hope you realise that this goes the other way as well? Yes, Wiggy know's these player's, but they know him as well. When it comes to Gregg, they knew as little about him as he knew about them, thus making their match-ups a true indication of Greggs level. To determine some one's level, the more mtaches they play and the more opponents they face, the better the indication of their level is.
 
As for Henzell, sure, getting close, but he have been unbeatend for, what, 5-6 years? To me, that says a lot about the drop of in level. Not to disrespect Henzell in any way, but I seriously doubt he would have remain unbeaten against fellow countrymens if he had been Swedish or English.

[blocker]

Played Dennis Makaling just 2 weeks ago in our A1 league, and I can tell you that he had to work to win, There were no easy points (OK, some were easy).

I was Sh*t Scared playing him, but did quite well after all getting Duece in one of the games, and the rest were over 7. I'm sure the sweat on his forehead was from the hard match and not the Warm weather that we dont have at the moment.

Rob, I'm not sure if you are trying to argue that there isn't a lack of depth? anyway, to avoid confusion I should have written:

"My point about depth actually concerned how dramatically the standard fell away after around 20 and that many players ranked over 20 would seriously struggle to win a point against the top 7 or so if the top player tried 100% for the entire match. surely this speaks to a distinct lack of depth?"

I'm not much of a player but every now and then I get close in a game against players who are much better than me. However, I try not to read too much into this. As I frequently lose to much much weaker players it would be self-delusional of me to believe that my stronger opponent was trying 100% in these instances. Dennis is a fantastic player but he is also very easy-going. Nevertheless, it's great that you played well against him. 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Based purely on population and the low level of TT popularity we have in Aus naturally means the strength and depth of our players will not be as much as a countyr like Great Britain where the population density is far greater as is the interest in TT. Given our population and TT population though, I think we have some very good players floating around Australia. But given there is little money in TT, there are very few like William who can afford to go and live and train in Sweden and Germany to become his level. As we have seen William himself has had to come back and take up a job outside TT. Its all very well to say Australia has no depth in our players, but I think it needs to be recognised there is good reason for this, given we are remote from where the best TT takes place and TT players get little incentive here to go very far. Not dissimilar to TT in the USA I dare say. Given all this, I think the standard of TT in Australia is decent enough overall. And when it comes down to it, who really cares? All I care about is getting opponents who are good enough to give me a good stoush, and there are plenty of those here LOL

[big ears]

I've been missing all the fun! I'm just going to play a tournament, I'll report later. Wether a player is 'good' or 'great' is a matter of where you are looking from, and Rob there is no way Brian Berry would be anywhere near to the top 10 vets in England. what Blocker is trying to put across, and what I've said 100's of times, there are so many more players in UK than in Aus, Imagine The standartd and volume of players in Melbourne, and x by 20 and you might be getting on the right wavelength. So there will be 20x the amount of players in any given standard across the board.

[speedplay]

Reb, I don't think anyone isclaiming that Aussies are worse TT players because of the Aussie gene in them

I'm sure the level of Aussie TT is where it should be concidering all factors, such as amount of players, clubs, tradition and stuff like that. What needs to be realised is that some countries have more players, more clubs and a much longer tradition in the sport, so it is only natural that these nations have better players at the top but above all, they have more players at the higher levels. With this said, Henzell is almost to good to be an Aussie, but he spent a lot of time practising in both Sweden and Germany, countries with more traditions in the sport.

As for the USA remark, I actually think that you guys are ahead of them when it comes to level, both at the top and depth. But, you are trailing to U.K, who are trailing to Sweden, who are trailing to Germany who are trailing to China. A U.K player rated as number 100 in the U.K would most likely not be top 200 here. Our guy at position 100 would probably be very lucky to slot for a place in the top 1000 in China.

[pingpongrob]

Rob there is no way Brian Berry would be anywhere near to the top 10 vets in England.

thats strange you know Wiggy, cause Brian has reached the Top 16 of the World Vets, not once but wait for it "twice."

[speedplay]

thats strange you know Wiggy, cause Brian has reached the Top 16 of the World Vets, not once but wait for it "twice."

In the World cup for veterans? Or is there a vteran ranking? I'm going to guess a bit here, but I doubt that allvets actually care to play at an international level. I remember reading that when the vets WC was held in Finland, Finland won most medals, does that show that Finland have the best vets in the world?

[pingpongrob]

In the World cup for veterans? Or is there a vteran ranking? I'm going to guess a bit here, but I doubt that allvets actually care to play at an international level. I remember reading that when the vets WC was held in Finland, Finland won most medals, does that show that Finland have the best vets in the world?

Therefore with this reasoning, Ma Long is just an ordinary player cause not all top players enter the World Championships

[RebornTTEvnglist]

It is a tough one though Rob. I mean when World Vet Masters were held in Australia, Case won the O65 title. When it was held in China, he made the round of 16. Still good, but there were 15 better players willing to play in China but not Australia (and they were probably mostly Chinese I guess). Your logic on Ma Long is also a good one too though. I don't think anyone can say any particular TT player is better than another half way across the world unless they have either played with clearcut results and no reason for one to have been down at the time. I think all you can really do is speculate most of the time. Very hard to prove anything. When it comes down to it, people can only get the results they get by beating the people that are put in front of them in any given competition they enter. Ratings are all based on this. They are based on reality of what actually happened, not on what might have happened if such and such had played that day, etc.

[blocker]

Therefore with this reasoning, Ma Long is just an ordinary player cause not all top players enter the World Championships

Maybe I'm missing something here. Speedplays point seemed to be that in the World Vets most of the top players DIDN'T play (hence Finland - a weak TT country - won many medals); whereas at the World TT Champs virtually all the top players DO play. I don't know if what Speedplay says is correct concerning the results but I think understand his reasoning.

[big ears]

thats strange you know Wiggy, cause Brian has reached the Top 16 of the World Vets, not once but wait for it "twice."

How many Australian players have reached the knockout rounds of an 'open' easy when there are only Australian players in it,+ maybe a few Asians.
 Depends where its held mate as to how strong it is. At the English championships this year John Hilton (ex european mens singles champ and easily comparable to P/Pinckewitch) went out in the groups. I think you have no Idea of the strength in depth over here, there are literally 100's of Brian Berrys.

[speedplay]

Blocker nailed it. In the seniors game, the top rated players from each country go, but in the vets game, those who can afford it and are willing to take vaacation to participate do so. Not to forget, some of the best vets still play senior championship instead of vets. So your comment about Ma Long isn't valid at all.

It's still a good effort from Brian, but to think he is in the top 16 in the world because of this is a little naive. Kind of like thinking that the guy who finishes as number 28 in the senior WC actually is number 28 in the world, cause most likely, he isn't, but there are restrictions for how many players each nation can send, but the guys who finishes as number 1 is most likely the best player in the world at that moment.