Stuff/styles you would like to get rid of in our sport?

[speedplay]

Forget all about being polite, forget the fact that we all claim we want as much diversity in our sport as possible and list things that you would like to be banned from our sport, even if it is stuff that would be impossible to ban.

I'll go first;

I would like a ban against the close to the table LP blocker kind of game, as this game is ugly to watch and brings no joy to play against and I also believe that up to a certain level, it don't require much skill to play. Granted, after that level, it becomes a lot harder to play like this and they might all of a sudden be at disadvantage because of their style, but at the lower levels, these guy beats players who have a much more complex game.

I know, I used to play this style my self, but I gave up on it as soon as I realised how it should be played to be most successful, since it became utterly boring to play.

[cyber1call]

High-rated players who never play (or help teach) low-rated players.
 

[speedplay]

High-rated players who never play (or help teach) low-rated players.

So, it isn't enough to get to watch them play? fair enough, we can all have our say here about who or what we don't want in our sport.

[blue_smartie68]

How about this thought off the top of my head...
 
Once a close game reaches 10 each... all nets and edges should be banned as legal points and should they occur, the point must be replayed!!
 
 

[Peter C]

Speedy

In my experience, most players I've come across who consciously play with long pips or anti, to play a close to the table game; do so to hide a weak backhand or are unorthodox, which has meant they've never developed a normal range of strokes; on that wing.

An example is someone locally who gets very few wins in a higher division, but gets a much better average in the second division, not because he's a good a player; but as a direct result of the players not having the experience of how to play against them properly or consistently.

And you are right, very few enjoy playing him, as it's so boring to play against. Sadly he believes he's a good player due to his high average in a lower division, but the truth is his backhand consists of blocking, which is why he switched to them in the first place.

[pingpongrob]

High-rated players who never play (or help teach) low-rated players.

I totally agree.

From my wife's point of view, she hates watching matches between Supachop and me, yet enjoy the faster paced game of 2 conventional players.
I used to hate playing players that used frictionless pips at the table, but this has all but dissapeared due to the ITTF banning them.
In my younger days I would get so confused playing pips players, that I hated it, but know its a challange and quite enjoy it - win or lose.

[cyber1call]

So, it isn't enough to get to watch them play? fair enough, we can all have our say here about who or what we don't want in our sport.

 
I do like watching the good players play and try to learn from that. But it seems to me that without "growing" the sport of TT that someday those good players may come to the club and find chains on the door because the rent could not be paid. And they will bitch and moan and never think that they are the cause. It's never about them.
 
No recreational sport (and that is just what TT is except for maybe a few hundred people in the entire world) can survive without a constant stream of new blood. Most clubs are run by volunteers on shoestring budgets. Probably 10% of the members do 90% of the work and then get berated because they assigned someone to a lower division than they thought they deserved or asked someone not to abuse the club's tables or to quit shouting cho on every point. The league at my home club just last month folded when the organizer quit in disgust because of too many egos fighting over such pettiness generated by a small handful of selfish people.
 
I'm new to TT but I'm not new to life. I won't bore you with the athletic accomplishments of my youth, but I'll just say that I have participated at a fairly high level in a few sports and was a professional baseball umpire up to the university level for many years. And I say without reservation that I can recognize spoiled brats who care only about themselves and nothing about their sport or sportsmanship. The problem isn't limited to just table tennis.
 
So yes, I firmly believe that everyone has a responsibility to whatever sport they participate in--that is if they really care about the sport. Part of that responsibility is the concept of mentorship. That might just be the Div 1 player asking me toward the end of a night's play to just knock it around a bit and give me a few pointers or feed me some multiball drills. A club with people like that would soon have to find larger quarters.
 
 

[RebornTTEvnglist]

As an LP player I love playing with me LP. I certainly do LP block and it is not as easy an art to master as some people may think. Certainly not when you are up against great loopers or smashers. My game is not one dimensional though, as I love to attack with the LP when I feel right to do so, and I love smashing with my inverted too. As far as I am concerned blocking is just a part of the game like any other when you play close to the table, whether it be with LP or Inverted. It requires not just good reflex but also getting the bat angles right. This is harder with the LP than it is with the inverted. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What looks ugly to someone is usually caused by a lack of appreciation or understanding of what they are looking at.


As far as I'm concerned every part of TT is great, as long as its played within the rules.

[speedplay]

Cybercall, although I also would love to get coaching and help from better players, I don't think it is fair to demand it from them, as we all strive to improve. I am how ever grateful if I do get advice from them, or the possibility to have a knock with them. I try to offer this my self to player who is of a lower level then I am.

The thing is, you wouldn't demand a high level football club to play and practice with a low level football club and state that as their responsibility. Still, this tread was created for every one to express their opinion and I respect your opinion about this and I would, as stated, love to receive more help from skilled players then I currently do.

@Reb, I have played this close to the table blocking style and I have played against it. I know it takes skill and it is not like every one can pick up a sheet of LP and become a good blocker with it, how ever, if you do pick up that sheet of LP and practice with it, I think it takes less time to reach a certain level then it would if you used double inverted. Once a certain level is reached, it evens out and slowly the advantage is for the double inverted player as pips gets harder and harder to use with success the higher up in the levels you climb. And yes, the same thing could be said with anti. My main point wasn't about this, it was rather about the passive blocking style as being utterly boring to play against. Give me a chopper, I don't mind that, I actually enjoy playing against it, but people who stay close to the table and use their pips/Anti to block anything that comes at them are boring to play against, boring to watch, and what's worse, I found it to be a very boring style to play. No disrespect to players who plays like this, it is with in the rules, but this topic was about things we would like to get rid of and this is one thing I wouldn't mind seeing go away.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Sure Speedplay and I agree and disagree with you. I agree pure LP blockers at lower level where the block is more of a push is boring. But as part of an overall modern defender game strategy where the LP block goes back like a bullet at severe angles it doesn't look boring at all. I have had many players look at me with amazement including Mars and SHFS at blocks I have sent back from my LP. They look every bit as exciting as Inverted blocks. Anyway, you are entitled to voice your opinion in your own thread lol, and if thats what you would like to see out of the game, its up to you. My personal opinion in response to your thread question though is all is fair in TT and war and hence don't believe any style is voodoo.

[JKC]

Swearing and all of the generally aggressive behaviour that often goes with it.
 
Also people who can't accept that you played better than them - they must have been playing badly or there is some problem with the conditions or some other factor involved.

[speedplay]

Reb, at least we agree to disagree about LP blockers Cause unless it is seen at the highest level (think Fabian Åkerström) I don't enjoy watching it.

Another thing I would like to see baned is the "in your face" celebrations for each won point. I don't mind players who cho's every now and then, but players who do it while looking at their opponent, trying to psyche them rather then an honest celebration of the won point, I really don't like that.

[Peter C]

As a rule, I don't object to long pips; but I do find it boring playing the particular player, I mentioned above.

[big ears]

High-rated players who never play (or help teach) low-rated players.

 Why should they?  This subject often crops up within clubs and on TT forums. There is some kind of belief within the lower ranks that the higher ranks got there because when they were lower, the kindness of the higher ranked players at the time passed their knowledge on by spending time with them, and now they are not reciprocating the fact that they were helped themselves. With great respect, its rubbish, there are many standards in TT, and often the gap between the novice players of a club and the advanced players is huge. There is no short cut, if a player works hard he can make his way up the practice hierarchy, but many players have restricted time to practice and wish to get the best practice they can within the time they have available, everyone is the same whatever the level whilst they are serious about their results. When top players get a little older, and matbe not so serious, then they may or may not start to feel the need to practice with and bring on some of the lower standard players, but they invariably reached a high standard off the back of their own bloody hard work, and don't owe some kind of Debt to the TT fraternity.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Its a pretty complicated issue actually Biggie, as I'm sure you are well aware. Certainly low rated players dont need the highest rated players in the club to teach them as they can learn plenty from people just the next level up. In fact often a highly rated player may not be the best person to teach a low rated player, unless the high player is a good coach. Its up to individuals anyway and how they see things and feel about teaching others, or being taught by others. I know there are some people who can consume a heck of a lot of a persons time trying to get the hang of the game and not get very far. As you say, if a player has very limited practice time, they can't really afford to waste it like this. Other people relish in imparting knowledge to another and have a knack for it. It comes down to the individuals involved and the circumstances and culture of the club IMO.

[cyber1call]

There is some kind of belief within the lower ranks that the higher ranks got there because when they were lower, the kindness of the higher ranked players at the time passed their knowledge on by spending time with them, and now they are not reciprocating the fact that they were helped themselves.

I don't believe that is a common feeling at all among the lower level players I know. We appreciate that for almost all higher rated players it is due to hard work and dedication to the sport over many years. There really is no other way to rise to the top.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that mentoring and "giving back" to the game is in the best interest of the veterans. Surely it's different in different countries, but at least in America the sport of table tennis is never going to grow significantly without lots of new players entering the sport. Only some very small percentage of new players are likely to stick around more than even a few months. In business, it's axiomatic that it costs a lot less to KEEP a good customer than to acquire them in the first place. So when a new player walks into the club, the "acquisition" has taken place and it simply behooves the organization to work very hard to retain that person. If TT clubs don't think of themselves as businesses that must satisfy the needs of clients...well, then they are going to grow stagnant and the sport is going to decline.

Now I suppose some TT clubs may liken themselves to prestigious golf country clubs where one is a member by invitation only. That type of TT club may have its place and more power to them. But if a club is a public club run by its own members then I believe everyone in the club has certain responsibilities. I've observed that some members (sorry to say often the higher rated ones) always seem to show up after all the tables and barriers have been setup and conveniently leave a half hour before closing time. Somehow some people think that a public TT club just magically runs itself and even gripe about how much the dues are and have to be nagged to pay up as it is. Then they complain because some of the nets are getting ragged or the tables need refinishing or it's too cold or too hot. Well, these things take money and the more members paying in the more a club can do to maintain itself. Getting new members to "stick" and thus contributing to the money pool is going to help all members. (Unless of course the high-rated players have lots of money and decide to donate money for new tables or new air-conditioning...yeah, right.)

If I can relate it to another sport: chess. (Some may disagree that chess is a sport but that's not relevant to this discussion.) I was once a fairly high-rated player in chess (2150) and I am a two-time champion of the Unites States Armed Forces in correspondence chess. Chess ratings are exactly analogous to USATT ratings. Now when I played chess in a club, there were players much, much lower rated than I and usually it was to my disadvantage training-wise to play them. Of course I always sought out play with master players (never played a grandmaster) and almost always lost to them. The risk they took playing me certainly wouldn't be justified in official rated competition unless they were forced by the draw to play me. Likewise with me playing the 1400 rated players...all risk and no gain rating wise. Yet in a club environment playing non-rated games most chess players would gladly play even raw beginners from time-to-time and use the experience to help the new player and to encourage them and, yes, even impart some of our hard-earned knowledge and experience. We knew that all clubs have a certain core of members and that keeping the membership level at critical mass required frequent "priming of the pump" at the bottom. On the other hand I've seen expert chess players who would choose to simply "crush" their newbie opponent without mercy and make them feel small and foolish. Those are newbies who are unlikely to come back. I've seen more than one chess club die from inbreeding and snobbishness.

I do understand that training time is sometimes precious. But almost everytime I go to my club I see players that aren't exactly training for the Olympics standing around shooting the breeze with empty tables available that neither offer to play me or if I ask them to play they have a ready excuse to avoid play. I just think that being nice to all people and following the "golden rule" (treat everyone like you yourself would like to be treated) is just the moral thing to do.

 

[big ears]

We all agree what is the right thing to do, I'm offering you an explanation as to why it does not happen, because there is 'eliteism' going on. I've been a member of my club since I started playing 35 yrs ago, I worked my way up until I am still the best player in my region, but going back 35 yrs, I was the kid setting up the tables and generally hanging about to get a game with the best players I could, not one of the top guys at the time would practice with me, and that is what made me more determined to attain their standard, so they would give me some respect. It took a long time to get it, but I got there in the end, the harder it is, the more pride you take in doing it. My club has 70 members now and I am the club coach, but when I practice, I practice with the best player possible, and I hold the view, that could be anyone in the club, they just have to be in the top 3/4 players, if they are not, they can work at it, I did.

[Honey]

I can understand both views here, but I think I'm leaning towards wiggys pov.

I think its important to look to the level close to both sides of your standard. I actually think there is no value in 2 players playing who are too far apart. UNLESS you are specifically coaching one area, or spending alot of time regularly with this person. For simple knocking at a club, no value.

Look both sides of your level, who's just above your level, whos just below your level and work your way up. I commented on my blog on DTTW a while back when I'd had the chance to play a match against some of the best local league players in our club. Whilst I could still get in there at times, really there was no longterm value for me there yet unless I could play at level every single week. For me to improve I need to keep playing players slightly above my standard and concentrate on beating players of my standard, consistently. Don't jump in the deep end!

Having said that, there are times though when lower level players can get a buzz just from little things the higher level players do. Just abit of support here and there.

About this time last year I played a handicap tournament, and all players from other events had to umpire. I had a top local player (who I did know before) umpiring my games. In between games he kept giving me tips and confidence boosts even after the game he had umpired me for - simple support like that from better players is so valuable. As long as your friendly etc most higher level players will help you out. Give them time to get their proper practice in with their buddies, and ask at the right times.

I really think though if you look at the bigger picture, better players are willing to help. I've probably said it before, its more about personalities and general respect, than it is about who's the better TT player.

[speedplay]

Have to add to this,

when I begun playing, I was at the very bottom of the rating chart in the club and the local league. Yes, I was seriously pi**ed at the better players who always tried to find some one else then me to have a hit with, as I thought that even though I lost to them, I was good enough to give them valuable practice.

Now, I'm in the middle of the club ranking and close to the top in the local league and I know how wrong I was. Now I understand why they didn't want to hit with me and I have realised that there was no benefit for either one of us to do this. Why? Because if we did hit, they had to adapt to a much slower game, and get prepared for shots they never faced when playing against some one of their own level, not talking about awkward shots, more like no spin loops, no spin pushes, very high pushes and stuff like that. For me, I had to play out of my level, trying to hit much more then I was comfortable with, to even win a point. Then when I played some one at my own level, I would lose as I tried to play above my level, making things harder then I had to do. We need to learn how to walk before we can run, it is as easy as that.

There is currently a player at the club, a couple of levels below me, and he wants to practice with us and to be honest, this gives me nothing at all. I know that if I put my mind to it, I can white wash him at least 1 set out of 3, and keep him below 3 points in every set we play. How ever, he don't realise this, he thinks that we are fairly evenly matched as he gets to 6-7 points in each set. I try to explain that it is because I try new things all the time, and even when I prove it to him by playing all out, he thinks it is his game that have dropped, not that I've raised my game.

Sure, I can do bh drills with him, where I hit/loop and he blocks and this is beneficial (at least for me) since bh is my weak spot, but that is about it.

So, why should I waste both of our time by playing him? I do try to help him, give him advice and stuff like this, but like many other lower level players, he already thinks he knows it all. At least, when I was the worst player, I listened to advices, even though I thought I knew it all back then.

Now, I know a lot more, but the only thing I have realised is how much stuff there is to learn.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Nice to see you are starting to see none us of us EVER know it all LOL.

Actually you make good points in your post Speedplay as I have had similar experiences with some lower level players as well. It can e quite a relief when another lower level comes along and offers to hit with them, so you can move on to someone of your own level. I still would never knock back a hit from a lower level player though, as I think everything is a learning experience to some degree. You would not have realised some things you have now realised without it, for example.

[JKC]

I spend most of my life knocking with lower level players and I don't really mind. It just depends on the attitude of the player.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

But what about player that can barely hit the ball back to you let alone rally for a few balls JKC? That's where it get a little frustrating, when you are picking up the ball 3 times as often as you are hitting it.

A lower level who can rally, but you will crap on in a match because they can't read spin and serves is fine to have a knock with.

[Honey]

Speedplay has it spot on there.

A different example though. A couple of weeks ago I offered this lower level player a knock, he's almost a beginner but has been coming very regularly and taken to it naturally. He's a friendly guy n we were having a good laugh knocking, he was so consistent, and I was actually really enjoying the knock.  The club soon got busy, and he started looking round and saying 'why don't you knock with *** now', and I kept trying to say to him that I really was enjoying the knock. Just because there was alot of higher level rated players sat down waiting, he felt guilty that he was knocking with me. No matter what the situation, this should never be the case, if someone has paid to come into a club, you've got to make them feel comfortable. The fact is, if the club hadn't been as busy, I'd have knocked with him for much longer, but I really felt sorry for him that he was really feeling guilty that he was knocking with me.

[Der Echte]

I think we need to get rid of the Wavestone from the ITTF approved list. 

I think that clubs would have better harmony/value if we had more JKC and Honey type members. Speedplay is right my alley - practical to the T. Although I never met Rob, Reb or Peter C, I feel they would be invaluable. Skippy was only 600 km from me, but I never met him, yet he shapes up to be a loyal member.

[JKC]

But what about player that can barely hit the ball back to you let alone rally for a few balls JKC? That's where it get a little frustrating, when you are picking up the ball 3 times as often as you are hitting it.

A lower level who can rally, but you will crap on in a match because they can't read spin and serves is fine to have a knock with.

We don't have any adults who are quite that bad at the sessions I attend or somethimes kids come with other other young members, they tend to just play with the person who brought them in or other friends. I never really minded doing it when Fred couldn't hit the table much, but I suppose that was different. I'll be doing it all over again in the summer when my daughter gives it a bit of a try.

[big ears]

So many quality replies to this subject, I honestly think that this forum is the best place for it, we are a bit of an elite club here, no arguments, we are the elite of forum guys, I am the most argumentative person I know, but you guys here give me nothing to go at. So you have to ask, what is the point of this forum well, I like to think of it as some kind of sanctuary, I know Speedy does, but what is the point ROB? If it is really successful it will lose that, but surely that is yr aim ? The ultimate paradox? I need a DER answer here....

[pingpongrob]

So many quality replies to this subject, I honestly think that this forum is the best place for it, we are a bit of an elite club here, no arguments, we are the elite of forum guys, I am the most argumentative person I know, but you guys here give me nothing to go at. So you have to ask, what is the point of this forum well, I like to think of it as some kind of sanctuary, I know Speedy does, but what is the point ROB? If it is really successful it will lose that, but surely that is yr aim ? The ultimate paradox? I need a DER answer here....

Depends what you call really successful, In my eye's it is already successful - Quality members with quality posts (Thanks Guys). Why do we need thousands of members with useless posts. And lets face it, I dont use this forum as a business generating Forum, Just information and general chit chat about a sport that I have a great passion for. I hope that all members feel the same way as well. Thats why I call this OUR FORUM.

[Der Echte]

Rob has been pretty consistant with his views and it his motivations and love of TT are very evident to even the most hardest of hard heads, except maybe Varg & Co. Of course growing the business through the forum isn't a viable propostion at this juncture. Of course Rob loves TT, talking about it, and sharing it. I pity the fool who gives Rob any attitude over it.

I don't know if I can say anything that would meet or exceed the expectations and intellectual curiousity Big Ears is probing for. We all have our own different objectives and wants for TT, foruming and life. There are many similar ones among us, despite differences. A lot of us are multi-forum posters and there is certainly quality and harmony in this TT forum. We see most of the positive benefits of TT foruming here as we discussed in the "Usefullness of TT Forums" thread and few of the negative ones. It is almost a shame we do not provke more thought and discussion or attract even more of the high percentage / high quality contributers out in the TT forums. That takes time to build and changes with the collective fatigue or energy of members as a whole. It takes a slow addition of new members to keep the new ideas and topics fresh, interesting, and meaningful. One bad byproduct of that is you get the counter-productive members with the growth and there is no polite or courtious way to discourage their behaviour without coming accross as a autocratic dictator. Again, that is certainly not what anyone wants, so in light of it all, even if we want it to be bigger and more frequent action here, our current state is not so bad at all. A forum that can put up with me has plenty of inner self assurance, maturity, and judgement.

[Peter C]

I'd agree this forum is more harmonious because you don't get some of the more dubious or disruptive posters like elsewhere or some of the inane threads either..

Thank goodness the one man wrecking ball, better known as Sid and Varg aren't members.

p.s. Der echte

Here is a comedy moment for you laugh at, from the Porto v Arsenal game

Porto v Arsenal - Arsenals backpass goal for Porto Full video and analysis.avi

You couldn't make it up

[speedplay]

Classic goal and I don't think I need to remind any one that it was the same referee who missed Henry's use of the hand in the WC-qualification game between France and Ireland? He is making a name for him self, isn't he?