The most complexed sport in the world?

[speedplay]

Having read about how different sports have been compared to find the most complexed sport, I'm curious as to which sport you guys think is the hardest to learn and become good at.

Seeing how this is a TT-forum, we might be slightly biased, but then again, the original comparison was made by a US magazine, so I think it is fair to say we are no more biased then them

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Golf would have to be up there on the list. There's a hell of a lot to the game and to become very good at it you need skill, talent, understanding of the game and the landscapes involved, judgement of distances and how to judge what it takes to move a ball from point a to point B taking into account obstacles. The rules are quite complex too. Then there is working out how spin and wind, will affect the balls flight. A lot to understand about how equipment affects your game too. Huge mental issues involved and there is a big risk versus reward factor to take into account, especially when you get into troubles like trees and rough. Then there is also the handicapping system to be understood which is a whole  other aspect to work out. There may be sports that are more complex, but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Now that TT isnt complex, but I think its simpler than golf. Motorsports may be pretty complex too. I think many sports have more complexity to them than might appear, once you appeciate the sport and its complexities.

[speedplay]

Have to disagree with Golf, cause even if it is truly challenging, you don't have any opponents trying to mess you up and you never need to make a split second decision. So, I have no doubts that Golf requires great skill, but the lack of these elements is the reason why I wouldn't consider it the most complex sport.

[Honey]

I have to agree with speedplay here (with much respect to Golf of course!)

We are also trained as humans to be able to judge our environment and whats around us, its just some of us have forgot how to do it well! I think once you can hit the ball straight, the complexities of golf fall more naturally into our human nature. I'm always sad to see when people, when there is an obvious cross wind, don't show any sign of trying to compensate for it. It's things like this that some of us take to naturally and others don't.

With TT however, its just a constant circular feedback system, your having to process information non stop, and even then you may not win. I don't need to try and justify TT...its simple..its just complex!!

[blue_smartie68]

How about this new sport that's making waves in the UK (according to the telly the other night)...Chess Boxing!
 
a few minutes of chess set up on a table in a boxing ring.... then a round or two of the opponents punching the daylights out of each other... then back to the chessboard, and so on... until there is either a KO or a Checkmate.
 
Now that sounds complex to me, or at the very least crazy!! lol 

[pingpongrob]

the original comparison was made by a US magazine

So which sport did they find was the hardest.

I find it hard to belive that GOLF is a sport  - more of a pastime. You play against yourself and the elements, your oppenent doesnt apply any pressure to you at all. I know I'm opening up a can of worms, but lets face it, isnt that what Forums are all about.

Hardest sport to play is definetly Playstation or XBox.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

I'm not in an argumentative mood, so I'll just say you guys just prove my point that until you really understand a sport (or pastime Rob, if you want to classify it that way) then you don't realise the complexities. Each to his own opnion. But to say golf doesn't take much skill to be good at is very short-sighted. May as well say nothing takes skill to do.

[big ears]

I like to break things up a little when considering these kind of subjects.
What is required as a definite to succeed at any given sport.
 
well, you don't have to be super fit to play Golf.
 
You don't need brains to be the world no1 100m runner
 
So both those sports (and similar ones) are out of the equasion) But all sports require dedication to reach the top.
 
Some sports are so minor hardly anyone is there to challenge you, so you are a world contender just by taking part (RTW Yachting)
Then there are the team games, for complexity, American Football seems quite up there.
I think reb has a point though, most non TT people would laugh at the suggestion that TT is complicated, its just pingpong to them.
 
I would certainly put TT 'up there' though not just because of my own experience of the game but because it tick these boxes;
 
At the top level...
 
You have to be, Extremely fit, top rated hand-eye co-ordination, have tactical brains (debatable) be extremely agile and be able to perform all of these attributes under huge amounts of pressure.
 
Table tennis is NOT a minor sport, because of its popularity in China and the East, which adds to the difficulty of making it to the top.
 
 Where did they place TT in the magazine survey?

[speedplay]

Reb, no one (well, perhaps except Rob) claimed that Golf was easy, and to calim that we don't understand the sport because we don't agree is kind of narrow minded, don't you think? I'm not a good golfer at all, but some of my mates are (0.5 and 1.1 in hcp) so I do think I understand something about the sport.

Now, for the article, I think that baseball was rated as number one and if I'm not mistaken, TT was at spot 16 or something like that. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to the article.

I agree that TT is a very complexed sport with huge variation and I find it hard to think of any other sports that offers the same variation and challenge as TT do. How ever, most man on man events are challenging, look at Boxing or MMA. now there's a challenge, but, size does matter so you can actually win here with out being the best at what you do, you win simple because of your size.   Then we have squash, another complex sport, but here I have to admit, I know to little about it to know exactly how hard it is.

Come to think about it, there is a sport called Racketlon (perhaps you have another name for it) where the players play TT, Squash and Tennis. Noticeable with this sport it that most of the players are far better in Tennis and Squash (compared to those who only participate in one sport) then they are at TT. Should say something about it.

[big ears]

Baseball? in the UK that is a girls game of remarkably low complexity, Have an interesting read guys, skipping the first few paragraphs...
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/jul/27/cricket.comment

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Reb, no one (well, perhaps except Rob) claimed that Golf was easy, and to calim that we don't understand the sport because we don't agree is kind of narrow minded, don't you think? I'm not a good golfer at all, but some of my mates are (0.5 and 1.1 in hcp) so I do think I understand something about the sport.

Actually I didnt say understand something of the sport, I said "really understand it to appreciate the complexities". Yes it would be narrow minded if I said it simply cos you didn't agree. I did in fact say to each his own opinion meaning I have mine and you have yours. But given I have a deep understanding of golf and have gone through life hearing people who have not this understanding try to say its ot hard simply because the ball is still when you hit it doesn't mean its easy or simple. And a sport which pitches you against yourself, well there can be nothing more complex. I actually find the game easier when I am pitched against an opponent in a matchplay condition, because I then have one person to beat, not so much just myself and the course. And as if it wasn't complex enough to achieve getting the ball to the green, you the have to read green angles and contours in order to get the ball in the hole from distance by applying just the right impact with the putter. Perhaps our definitions of complex are different!


Squash is another game I played a lot of, and it is nowhere near as complex as Golf, IMO, but is perhaps equal or more complex than TT to be really good at. Master squash players are like chess players thinking several hits ahead of if I do this he should do that and I will then do this and eventually I will work him into an unwinnable position. Mind you a good TT player will be thinking in similar fashion, I think its less complex though because squash has so many more angles to account for using the walls.

[speedplay]

Then we see things different

Golf is surely a tough sport to master, no doubt, but the lack of pressure from an opponent makes it less complex then TT for me. In TT, I can have great shots against opponents of my own level, but put me up against a world class player, and he would most likely prevent me from using those shots. The same situation in Golf, my shots will still be valid and with a little bit of luck, I might even beat the pro on a hole every now and then, since no pro makes birdies all the time, and this is something most amateurs can achieve every now and then.

A funny thing when comparing the sports, imagine if Golf was as restricted as TT, so instead of carrying a whole bag of clubs, you were only allowed to use one, now imagine how many amateurs there would be trying to play the game with only a driver (given that naby of us use Off+ bats and Off+ rubbers).

[big ears]

I have a friend who packed in TT at 19, then in 3 yrs made it to county level at Squash, his opinion is that there is no real comparison, squash players only really have to cover angles, own the 'T' and be extremely fit, TT you've got angles, spin, varying equipment, trick serves, far more mental stuff going on, though IMO less physically exerting.
Golf is just in a different class of sport, and I find it hard to compare it with TT, as Speedy says, its a non direct contact sport, so once you are competing, there is nothing the opponent can do tactically to stop you, this takes a huge chunk out of the 'complexity' because all that is left is perfection of technique and the challenge of the course.

[speedplay]

^What he said!

So then squash is out of the running, and I know that when I was 18 years old, I was on par with players rated around 30-50th place in Sweden in Tennis, with out any formal training at all, so I don't rate Tennis to be as complex as TT either.

[Honey]

I'm still agreeing with big ears and speedplay here, sorry Reb.

In TT, you can hit the most outstanding shot that would beat most people, but if big ears reads it and sticks his bat out, blocks it back, then it may have been a great shot, but it has no purpose. In golf, if you hit an outstanding shot, then its an outstanding shot; no one can do anything about it.

[blue_smartie68]

It's an interesting conversation, but really there isn't going to a definitive answer as the word "complex" is not a tangiable parameter. There is no accurate measurement avialable, like the speed of a ball... or the distance hit. Every sport has it's own complexities and comparing them against each other is not apples with apples so to speak.
But in saying that...perhaps something like "volume of brain computations required in a given time" may be a measure of complexity (if it could be measured).... which would lead me to conclude that the faster sports would rate higher???!!! 
Does the act of assessing the lay of a green, the prevailing breeze, the slight undulation of the land (and taking into account the small ant with a limp) while lining up a 12 foot putt, provide more complexity than the reflex counter block of a TT smash? Perhaps it does if we are considering all the brain computations involved.... but then maybe not as complex if we are also factoring the the speed of the computations??
 
I dunno!     
 
Good discussion though!
Cheers,
Chris

[blue_smartie68]

I'm still agreeing with big ears and speedplay here, sorry Reb.

In TT, you can hit the most outstanding shot that would beat most people, but if big ears reads it and sticks his bat out, blocks it back, then it may have been a great shot, but it has no purpose. In golf, if you hit an outstanding shot, then its an outstanding shot; no one can do anything about it.

I had a think about this one Honey, and really... as far as complexity issues go, it makes absolutely no difference whether the ball comes back or not! The complex thought processes, physical dynamics and actual execution of the shot is the issue isn't it... not necessarily whether you win the point or not.
A skilled shot is still a skilled shot regardless...
 

[speedplay]

A skilled shot is always a skilled shot, yes, but since part of the question is about getting good at a sport, it is important if you get any result with you actions. So, a good shot in Golf will always give you result, while a good shot in TT won't, which makes TT harder in this area. The only thing that I find speaks in favour of Golf as a more complex sport is the weather and the effects it can have on the game.

[pingpongrob]

I was having some fun when I said that Golf was a Pastime not a Sport. When you see whats allowed in the Olympics, you have to shake you head sometimes.

Golf is indeed a very difficult sport, and in my opinion pretty hard to learn. But one thing that I can say, its easier to learn on your own than what table tennis is. Squash can be learn't on its own as well.

I've played the following sports in Competition level:

1: Soccer (Boring) - lots of skill needed & super fitness
2: Squash, I quite enjoy this game, but I think its much easier than Table Tennis.
3: Football (Aussie Rules) - Very hard on the Body & very unfair at the lower levels. (easy to lose you teeth)
4: Tennis (Got to a very High Level), came very naturally
5: Table Tennis (Still trying to get to BigEars Level), wish I had played it when I was younger.

I also play golf about 3 times a year, and although I can hit the blasted ball straight (rarely do I lose a ball), I just cant get the distance. I would have to say that for me Golf is the Hardest Sport to play, but maybe because its so boring.

[blue_smartie68]

A skilled shot is always a skilled shot, yes, but since part of the question is about getting good at a sport, it is important if you get any result with you actions. So, a good shot in Golf will always give you result, while a good shot in TT won't, which makes TT harder in this area. The only thing that I find speaks in favour of Golf as a more complex sport is the weather and the effects it can have on the game.

Yep Speedy, I accept that....was thinking more about the actual body processes and forgetting about the score! And you did include that in your question.
Golf is a huge contrast to TT, not only the weather aspect....but golf courses are all set up differently with many "traps" to challange the players. There are hundreds more variables to contend with, whereas TT tables and playing conditions are to set standards (hopefully!) to totally minimize outside variations.
If we played outside in the elements and maybe had the odd sand bunker or water trap on the table....we would definitely win the most complex sport! 

[cyber1call]

Well, for my first post I will offer that the most complex sport in the world is Motorsports! Take your pick...IRL, F1, NASCAR. Yes, these drivers are incredible athletes with hand/eye/foot coordination, endurance, and COURAGE that few athletes in the world could match. Each driver takes a team of dozens (in some cases hundreds) to compete at the highest levels and the environmental and technical variations are basically infinite. In motorsports if you make an error you don't just lose a point or lose the match, you could lose your life or take the lives of others. So add some stress that no other sport can even come close to...
 
 

[blue_smartie68]

Good point C1C....as TT players no matter how ambitious we get with shots, or how distracted we get... we are extremely unlikely to end up in hospital (or dead!)
My death would really complicate my life!!! 
 
Oh...welcome to the forum 
 
Cheers,
Chris
 

[speedplay]

The F1 drivers did cross my mind before, but I had a good reason not to include them. Now, I can't remember the reason, but I'll try to remember it.

All sports are difficult to reach the world class level in, with out a doubt, even a basic sport like 100 metres dash there are things to think about. The tension required to make a good start, to be relaxed while running, yet letting the muscles perform to their maximum and stuff like that.

[cyber1call]

Well, the topic was "most complex" and I think the top-level motorsports could make a good claim on that. From an athletic standpoint it may not be the "hardest." Hardest might include things like mountain climbing or long-distance, multi-day bike racing. But that is a different topic! 
 
 

[blue_smartie68]

The trouble with the question is the word "complex". It takes in all the factors such as hardness/difficulty, tactics, speed, stress, environmental conditions, fitness and even understanding the rules! Also, Speedy has added more to the requirements of the answer in this case by saying "to become good at" ie, winning rather than just being skilled....
Sheeeeesh Speedplay...couldn't you just ask what our favourite colours are?? 

[pingpongrob]

Welcome Cyber1Call, Hope you enjoy your stay. Your first post is a very well thought out. I never thought that F1 or any MotorSport Driver requires that sort of Skill level, We had a famous Motor Sport Driver in Australia " Peter Brock", also known as Peter Perfect, yet one simple mistake and it cost him his life - May he rest in peace.

So yes, maybe you are right and at the top level Motor Sport may be the most complex sport in the world. I mean how more complex can it be, when all the electronic features are used to maintain & enchance the performance times of the vechiles.

[cyber1call]

Now I will reveal my bias! 
 
I am a subcontractor for one of the major American NASCAR racing teams. I've developed several external and internal web sites for that team. Besides just the fan sites, media sites, sponsor sites, and internal intranets used for the marketing of the sport (my arena), the information technology of these teams is among the most sophisticated in the world, including real time data analysis from the tracks via satellite back to their systems at the home shop.
 
This particular team has four cars/drivers and almost six hundred people supporting them, not counting hired subcontractors like my firm. Every engine is literally built from scratch for each car for each race. The detail of this is such that the displacement of every cylinder head and piston assembly is individually machined and matched one by one down to less than a thousandth of a cubic centimeter. And all of this is just to get a competitive car on the track. Race day has its own infinitely complex set of variables except that it occurs in a 180 mile per hour traffic jam...
 
 

[blue_smartie68]

Now I will reveal my bias!   
 

ok C1C, your vote doesn't count now! 
 
Nah, seriously I have no doubt that when you include all the sophisticated technology and cutting edge equipment used in your sport, then it would seriously rate as one of the most complex sports of them all.
However (and this may have been Speedy's forgotten reason??), when you take out of the equation all the support stuff (including equipment...even the car)..... is the sport itself that complex to learn and become good at?? To me, one of the biggest factors with motor racing is the financial investment and ongoing support.
Sure, the driver needs to have talent..... but maybe with unlimited funding, I could be a race car driver??!
Might be handy at least, for getting to all the table tennis tournaments quickly!
 
Cheers,
Chris

[speedplay]

Blue, you deserve the smartie part now

With complexed sport, I'm not talking about the material aspects of the sport, cause I have no doubt that building a race car is way more complex then putting together a bat for TT. 

What I'm talking about is purely the performance of the athlete. In F1, I know that it's not always the best driver that wins, it is often the guy with the best car. Sure, the driver still needs to be skilled to win, but, let's face it, not even Schumi (my favourite driver of all times) would have won all those races and titles if he wasn't driving a Ferrari.

In TT, equipment is also very important, but I don't think that a player have won or lost a tournament due to his superior/inferior equipment.

With this said, I still rate TT and race car as very complex sports and I'm not sure which one I would rate as the most complex. TT holds the edge due to having more participants then race car driving.

[cyber1call]

From a purely athletic standpoint I'd have to agree that TT is way more complex than I ever thought it could be when I was just a recreational player.
 
If I could toss in another highly complex athletic endeavour I would suggest the quarterback in an American or Canadian Football game. He has to keep track of 22 guys (24 in Canada) doing something different on every play, half of whom are trying to knock his head off. I'm not real familiar with Australian Football but I think it is somewhat similar as well.
 
But I would also rate golf highly as some have mentioned before. One look at a golf rule book will confirm the complexity of that game!