is this really 2200 - 2400 US Level

[pingpongrob]

Here is a Video link I found on MyTT. Its about a US player having a hit in his Garage against Werner Schlager, now of course Werner was mucking around, but I cant believe that the gentleman (Oliver Mader is rated between 2200 - 2400)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbjcyS8Mmys" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbjcyS8Mmys</a>

[speedplay]

Well, he is. He is a LP blocker who uses his LP to cover the entire table and obviously some people struggle a lot to play against this style.

As for this particular clip, yes, Schlager is just fooling around as he would be able to whitewash him at will, but when Oliver asked Schlager to get more serious, Schlager replied, why should I try harder, when you miss all the time as it is? That is exactly the point I've tried to bring forward earlier, don't make it harder then you have to, to win.

[pingpongrob]

Well, he is. He is a LP blocker who uses his LP to cover the entire table and obviously some people struggle a lot to play against this style.

As for this particular clip, yes, Schlager is just fooling around as he would be able to whitewash him at will, but when Oliver asked Schlager to get more serious, Schlager replied, why should I try harder, when you miss all the time as it is? That is exactly the point I've tried to bring forward earlier, don't make it harder then you have to, to win.

Looking at the Video, you will notice that Werner is just returning the ball very easily, yet Oliver is making all the mistakes. My point is that how does a player get to that supposed level (2200 - 2400) when he cant even return those simple balls.

Over at Mytt, the level mentioned, 2200 - 2400 is supposed to be a very hard level, yet I know that any player that plays at my level or Supachops level would never miss those balls.

[JKC]

I had the exact same thought as you lot when I first saw this vid.

[big ears]

Its because the majority of US players display very poor footwork and stroke production, they struggle with 'spoilers' such as this guy, that is why so many US players are combination players, its a successful way to play over there. That guy would not make the top English 500, maybe not even top flight of local league, he has no f/hand, and a b/hand lash that is inconsistent, Schlager is just putting the ball back. I would guess this guy wins his matches by playing players who do not read LP's well and make many mistakes. What happens at 44 sec says it all, that is not the stroke of an 'advanced' player......

[speedplay]

Okey, I admit, I don't like the style he uses, but lets give the guy some credit here, he is not playing John Doe here, he is playing Werner Schlager, and even if he knows him since childhood, I think he is a little nervous about it and he knows, simple putting the ball back on the table wont do it for him, so he tries to attack a lot more then he usually does.

I've seen him play against other good players (not world class like Schlager) and he have been able to compete with them, simple by being able to cover the table with his pips and make it hard for them to play their game.

So before you judge his level, try to find some more videos of him first and see how he plays against opponents of his own level, then perhaps you can make a fair judgement about his level. With this said, I doubt he would play very high in the league system here, as our best close to the table blocker plays in the third division from the top (might be fourth now, not sure) and he have a way better fh and serve. How ever, against Schlager, i think he would look as helpless as Oliver did in this clip.

[Honey]

Thanks for this thread. I was thinking totally the same, but I didn't want to sound above myself or anything, as I'm never that confident of whatever level I am as it is. I've watched some of his other videos too.

As mentioned it could just be a facet of the sheer spread of players across such a big country. We are lucky in England to be able to play a very wide range of styles, all locally, helping us all to develop good all round games.

[blue_smartie68]

I agree with Speedy here...
My initial thoughts were that this guy would be lucky to be B grader in our local club... which really is "basement level"! But it's the quality of his opponent which makes him look so bad and as Speedy says, he couldn't play his normal game.
I did look at a few of his other vids and he does block very well (albeit rather awkwardly) with his LPs against loopers around his ranking...and I suddenly thought... "hey wait a miniute, this guy would most likely beat me!!!"
Although, in my own defence... I have had very little experience playing pips. Give me a looper or smasher any day of the week! 
Thanks for posting Rob as I don't venture onto other TT forums.... and it's always interesting to see vids and hear comments from you guys 
Cheers,
Chris

[pingpongrob]

Here's another clip. No Offense to Oliver, but from what I can see, players are just simply confused with his style.

Chris, how did you go against George @ Sunbury, the Long Pips blocker.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRpqpLvPUnY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRpqpLvPUnY</a>

[speedplay]

Here's another clip. No Offense to Oliver, but from what I can see, players are just simply confused with his style.

And this isn't good because?

I mean, Oliver base his entire game on getting back one ball more then his opponent, he don't want to attack, so there is no way he will ever be seen as a good looper, or even a guy with good technique, but he is very skilled at what he is doing, and a lot of skilled players struggle to get the ball past him and sooner or later, they mess up when they try.

As I said earlier, this isn't my favourite style of play (used to play it for almost a year my self, then I got utterly bored with it as it wasn't even remotely fun to play like this) but I know it still takes some skill to pull it off, especially at the level that Oliver does.

Rob, I've seen how you play against pips, and no offence, but I think you could very well lose to this guy. Biggy on the other hand would probably eat him alive and chew out the leftovers, while looking for a serious opponent. Don't know how Supachop or JKC would do against him, but I do think both of them would be forced to change their game to play him. Me, I would beat him

[pingpongrob]

And this isn't good because?

Did I at any stage say he wasn't good. All I was stating that the 2200-2400 US rating is not that crash hot.
Find me a video clip of a conventional player and then I will retract my words.

[speedplay]

My point isthat how does a player get to that supposed level (2200 - 2400) when hecant even return those simple balls.

yet I know that any player that plays at my level or Supachops level would never miss those balls.

No Offense to Oliver, but from what I can see, players are just simply confused with his style.

Now Rob, these 3 statements are yours and they all imply that this player sucks, compared to you. He can't return simple balls, you would NEVER miss those balls and he isn't doing anything at all it just so happen that his opponents miss the table.

Now, if the rating 2200-2400 is crash hot or not, I honestly don't know. I know it isn't as good as some of them seem to think, that's for sure, but I still think it is a pretty decent level.

The thing with this style is that it requires 2 world class players to look like skill is involved, try finding a video of Fabian Åkerström playing against Dima OvnowayIcanspellhislastname and you'll see. At any other level, this style often makes both players look like basement noobs.

I wonder, have you ever played someone with this style? It's not as easy as it looks, but it's not as hard as some loopers make it out to either, but it is incredibly boring, that's for sure!

[pingpongrob]

My point isthat how does a player get to that supposed level (2200 - 2400) when hecant even return those simple balls.

yet I know that any player that plays at my level or Supachops level would never miss those balls.

No Offense to Oliver, but from what I can see, players are just simply confused with his style.

Now Rob, these 3 statements are yours and they all imply that this player sucks, compared to you. He can't return simple balls, you would NEVER miss those balls and he isn't doing anything at all it just so happen that his opponents miss the table.

Now, if the rating 2200-2400 is crash hot or not, I honestly don't know. I know it isn't as good as some of them seem to think, that's for sure, but I still think it is a pretty decent level.

The thing with this style is that it requires 2 world class players to look like skill is involved, try finding a video of Fabian Åkerström playing against Dima OvnowayIcanspellhislastname and you'll see. At any other level, this style often makes both players look like basement noobs.

I wonder, have you ever played someone with this style? It's not as easy as it looks, but it's not as hard as some loopers make it out to either, but it is incredibly boring, that's for sure!

My Point is not that Oliver is a Bad player, My point is that many members over at MYTT claim that 2200 - 2400 is a very decent level. Oliver Doesn't Suck, he makes his oppenants look like they suck by all comments at MyTT.

I've always stated "As long as you play within your level you look Good"

[pingpongrob]

I wonder, have you ever played someone with this style? It's not as easy as it looks, but it's not as hard as some loopers make it out to either, but it is incredibly boring, that's for sure!

You are joking aren't you. A fare proportion of the Vets in Australia play this style, and they are pretty good at it as well. Even Supachop (Although his name does not relate to his style), sometimes plays some of those block.

There is a Player at our local club (George), that plays that style pretty much, and although he gives lots of players trouble, he is fun to play against. I have played him many times, and cant remember the last time he beat me. Infact even when I had the Torn ACL (limited my movements) I still beat him. Having said this Oliver may just as easily beat me as he does others, we have already agreed that its hard to tell a persons level via the video clips.

My Point is that 2200 - 2400 US is supposed to be a high rating. From the look of Oliver's Video I think that maybe US players lack the challange of playing Pimple type styles.  Get my Drift 

[speedplay]

Yes, I get your drift, but judging by forums, I don't think this style is very rare in the USA. Oliver made a claim at Mytt that he is in the top 3.5% of ALL players in USA. Now, I have noe idea how this would translate to Australia, but it explains why players from USA thinks so highly of their 2200+ rating.

I haven't seen very much of Supachop, but I doubt he would play anything like Oliver, cause even if he use the occasional block, I have a hard time picturing him doing it all the time, all over the table.

We have a player in my club who plays a lot like Oliver, and I know that if I'm in shape, I should beat him, but I lost 2-3 last time we played. It is a very frustrating style to play against, and to be honest, I don't enjoy playing against it at all, cause it is a still that brings nothing to the table, but it is still hard to beat. To be completely honest, I would prefer if the minimum friction rule wasn't introduced, cause it was actually a lot easier playing against this style when they used those rubbers then the rubber they currently use.

[pingpongrob]

To be completely honest, I would prefer if the minimum friction rule wasn't introduced, cause it was actually a lot easier playing against this style when they used those rubbers then the rubber they currently use.

I have to dissagree on this one. On Mytt Oliver stated that to beat style's like his you have to play a No Spin type game. I learnt to play my game against these player, although not as easy to do, but someone with competant stokes surely can do it.

[speedplay]

I know Oliver claimed this, but in reality, all you have to think about is avoiding sidespin. Not many players are able to play no spin shots with inverted, so why bother to try? If you go for no spin, but get some, then you don't know if it is topspin or backspin, so make it easy on yourself, push it deep to his bh/pips, with a decent amount of backspin, then you know that you will get something back that carries some topspin and you are free to fire away. This was how it used to be, with minimum friction pips, but now, it is a different ballgame, cause sometimes the return comes back as no spin, sometimes is carries topspin and sometimes backspin, regardless of the spin you have put on the ball. This makes it a lot less predictable to play against them.

[big ears]

There is a guy, local to myself and Honey who plays almost identical to this player, his name is Malc Trueman. He does get success, I would think he beats Honey, but against anyone who knows how to read his game he is just nothing, mainly because he can not hit at all with his f/hand, if he could he would be 4x the player because it would be hard to play a system against him. Just as an example of how extreme these things can be, i have a friend who is quite a decent player called Steve Brophy, he lost to Malc Trueman 11-0 in a real match, in the same match, I beat Malc Trueman 11-0, yet Steve Brophy is a real hard game for me. Getting back to the point, I only really mention this guys lack of any kind of technique because he is quoted as a US 2200-2400 player, The new US champion although fortunate to have achieved his memorable feat, is rated 2402, I mean cmon, Brian Pace is 2468????

[speedplay]

His current rating is 2007, so saying 2200-2400 is kind of flattering to him, since the gap from 2200 to 2400 probably is pretty big.

Biggy, I have an even worse example then yours, since I played the guy at our club, lost the first, 10-12, then I decided to play him like I should and went 9-0 up before I got bored with it and wanted to finish him of, did cost me some points, but I won 11-6. Next set, I was once again to eager to finish him off and lost it 9-11. Got mad at my self, cause I feel that I'm the better player and didn't want to lose to him, so once again I begun to play him in the (correct) boring way and once again I went 9-0 up before he scored his first and only point in that set. Still managed to lose the deciding set, since I simply couldn't bring my self to continue to play the boring game required to beat this guy, so I lost the fifth set 7-11 or something like that, don't remember as I was all to happy to have the game over and done with.

[JKC]

Don't know how Supachop or JKC would do against him, but I do think both of them would be forced to change their game to play him. Me, I would beat him

Can't speak for Superchop, but I wouldn't be changing my game at all and I can't really imagine him scoring more than 2 or 3 points in any game. If I felt like being mean he may score 0. I do find players of this type very easy to play.

[speedplay]

Can't speak for Superchop, but I wouldn't be changing my game at all and I can't really imagine him scoring more than 2 or 3 points in any game. If I felt like being mean he may score 0. I do find players of this type very easy to play.

Really? I thought you would have to change your game against these players, cause from what I have seen of you (not much, I admit that) you seem to prefer to play away from the table, using heavy spin rather then speed. Seeing how this guy drops the ball short (non in this video, but against opponents that aren't world class) you would have to stay closer, and all that spin you give the ball will work against you when the ball comes back.

Over at Mytt, he claims to be in the top 3.5% of the players in USA, but this don't mean much to me, cause how many players are there in the USA? Is he top 100? Or top 1000? Cause I have to admit, the game don't look impressive, but I've seen players with this style beat players who's game looks really impressive.

[blue_smartie68]

His current rating is 2007, so saying 2200-2400 is kind of flattering to him, since the gap from 2200 to 2400 probably is pretty big.

So what was his rating when he played that match? Seems the answer to the question "is this really 2200-2400 US Level?" is no! The range 2200-2400 leads to the figure of 2300 in my mind....so, what was this guys highest ranking acheived at his peak? I think he is flattering himself!
 
This is an interesting thread all the same... and it's nice to read ideas on how to play these guys. Rob, I have only played George once at Sunbury... and I was all at sea having never really played his style or LPs before. He beat me in straight games but by the 3rd I was much more competitive and was really looking forward to the next round but he was away on that night. I think I''l be able to beat him with a bit more experience against pips.... have come up against a few on the veterans circuit and am certainly getting better against them, just need to cement some strategies in my mind. The most trouble I have had is against Jim Furness and Chris Sykes, not actually sure if they have pips or not...but they gave me strife!    I'm still at the stage of just trying all sorts of stuff to see what works... chopped the whole game against Chris, now that was boring!! 
 
I know what you mean Speedy.... sometimes you know what you have to do, but it's hard to stay in that un-natural zone! At least it is for me.
 
Cheers,
Chris
 
 

[Honey]

There is a guy, local to myself and Honey who plays almost identical to this player, his name is Malc Trueman. He does get success, I would think he beats Honey, but against anyone who knows how to read his game he is just nothing, mainly because he can not hit at all with his f/hand, if he could he would be 4x the player because it would be hard to play a system against him.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=71qXhyAyubo

Skip to 2:42 to see S.Perry (evenstevens from DTTW, top 30ish UK) play Malc Trueman, who wiggy mentions. From watching, I think Malc does what he does better than Oliver. Malc would beat me almost certain, but I've never actually played him. All I know is that his team are experts on the expedite system, which apparently gets used very often. Evenstevens shows how easy it can be to play this type of player, looking very casual (and having abit of fun) compared to standard play - he's a class player. Asked him if it was ok to show this vid, and he didn't mind.

[speedplay]

 what was this guys highest ranking acheived at his peak?

Don't quote me on this, but I think 2207 is his highest rating this far, and sorry for the earlier typo I meant 2207 not 2007. Which is between 2200 and 2400, but a lot closer to 2200.

Biggy or JKC, you guys seems to be better then me at judging the skill of players, so where would a 2200 Usatt rating place a player in U.K?

[speedplay]

All I know is that his team are experts on the expedite system, which apparently gets used very often.

Care to explain what this is?

As far as I can tell, I don't think there is a significant difference between Malc Trueman and Oliver, except that Oliver have a more bh oriented stance and it looks like he manages to keep the ball a little lower then Malc does, but this could be deceiving since Evenstevens is obviously very good at attacking, which might be the reason that Malc's returns looks higher.

[Honey]

Care to explain what this is?

Better I let gregg explain...

http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

[speedplay]

Better I let gregg explain...

http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

 

I thought I heard about it before, just couldn't figure out what it was, but as soon as I opened the link, I knew what it was. Now, the question is, do they really get to use it often? Cause I've never seen it used here and I would surely hate to umpire a game where it was introduced.

[Honey]

I thought I heard about it before, just couldn't figure out what it was, but as soon as I opened the link, I knew what it was. Now, the question is, do they really get to use it often? Cause I've never seen it used here and I would surely hate to umpire a game where it was introduced.

Yes without doubt, they use it lots. There is no other way. I've seen good players bottle out of attacking against him, and just lob it up and force a loose ball. Malc cant attack, but he can keep the ball on the table off the bounce for england!

It may seem extreme to use expedite system in local league, but if they didn't, the matches would last until midnight. I saw him play at home (same club as me) and games against 2 players of the other team both went to expedite.

[blue_smartie68]

That's bizarre!! I've never heard of it being used in Oz at all!
If I tried to use the ruling at the local club...I'm sure they would all look at me as if I was some kind of an alien 
 
So, 10 minutes for a game and a point can be even interupted when time is up?... do umpires get issued with stopwatches??
 
As I read it, after the receiver has returned 12 shots in the rally... then the server has no option but to play an unreturnable shot, no matter how low percentage it is (read "wild smash"! lol).
I too, would sure hate to umpire one of these games!
 

[Der Echte]

Oliver is certainly 2200 and in USA, that is good enough to put you near the bottom of top 500. He succeeds against players who do not havethe tactics or shots to defeat him. Another defensive player, Bogeyhunter, a modern defender type who attacks some, AND at the time was lower rated (50 pts less) easily defeated Oliver.
 
Oliver's game does not look aggressive attacking sexy. He gets points from errors. That is how defenders get nearly all their points. A point won from an error counts exactly the same as one point won from a powerloop kill shot. A point won from an error is a point earned regardless.
 
Schlager would rate USATT 2800ish. That is 600 points difference. ANY USATT 2200 would have zero chance and look like a basement player. I play an all-out attacking game based on getting long balls to attack with power and/or spin for a winner or pressure shot to set it up. Against a way better player (300 points or more) with excellent placement control, I look worse than a basement player. That is how it goes.
 
I do not like an exclusive block off the bounce game style. I do that a little when I have to defend, but it that is for a hit or two. The majority of over 2000 USATT players are inverted attackers.