Stroke level and strategy level?

[speedplay]

Interested to hear your view on this, do you think your stroke level or your strategy level is the most important for your over all level?

Cause I'm sure we all have meet someone who seems to have a very good game with solid strokes, but once we get to play them, we destroy them and this is a strategic victory.

At the same time, I'm sure we all have faced opponents who looks like it should be a walk in the part, only to find that we lose in straight games, not really knowing why we lost. This is a strategic loss.

Having watched several video of forum members (on all the forums I visit) I've reached the conclusion that most players have the strokes to move up a level or two, but they simple do not understand how to use their weapons, when to use then and what weapons to bring forward to what opponent. I've seen numerous players beating them self by trying to go for way more advanced shots then they need to.

[Der Echte]

I've probably fit that description in several areas, although they are rapidy improving. Player who were at my stage a year or so ago, could make a spinny or fast/spinny loop from a variety of balls that were at the lower to intermediate levels a winner, an error causing shot, or an easy return for a kill. Problem was that I couldn't make those shots with a high enough percentage. Basic flaws in being to upright or off balance wouldn't help that, not matter what the shot selection. I've fixed a part of this and saw way better results. I also changed my game to suit my strengths. I will still lose the majority of the time to the 3rd division players and do these same things, but a player one or two divisions higher should be able to make their opponent look like this. At my current level and one level above me, it is not an issue for me. maybe another thing besides improvement in the service game is an improvement in how to setup a 3rd ball attack, plus on the other side setting up a 4th ball attack or allow the opponent to attack to where I am ready. Doesn't sound like much, but it accounts for at least a level plus of improvement and Speedplay brings up a couple good points. If I could grow my "middle" game, I could be even better off.

[Silver]

Having watched several video of forum members (on all the forums I visit) I've reached the conclusion that most players have the strokes to move up a level or two, but they simple do not understand how to use their weapons, when to use then and what weapons to bring forward to what opponent. I've seen numerous players beating them self by trying to go for way more advanced shots then they need to.

Having watched several videos of forums members, I've reached the conclusion that most players edit their videos to make them look better. What they don't show is that 4 out of 5 times they're just trying to get the ball on the table under pressure rather than play tactically.

[pingpongrob]

Having watched several videos of forums members, I've reached the conclusion that most players edit their videos to make them look better. What they don't show is that 4 out of 5 times they're just trying to get the ball on the table under pressure rather than play tactically.

But the Best player of all Time - Mr Jan Ove Waldner also tries to keep the ball on the table when under pressure - I believe this in itself is a very good tactic, that works to win points.

I use the above tactic when playing some one that is above my standard in Stroke Developement.

[big ears]

I don't feel that I fall into that category really, I have well drilled strokes considering that I have a disability that only gets noticed once it has been pointed out, I do play very tactically, and if anything slightly too conservatively (miss the chance to put the ball away sometimes)

[speedplay]

Have to agree with Silver, most videos are edited, probably a lot more then they admits to.

Still, the thing is, I've seen player with pretty good strokes, but who totally fails to realise when they should use them and I believe that most players would easily gain a level simple by understanding when to use what shot.

Being a late starter as I am, I think that my strategic level is slightly higher then my stroke level, especially considering the holes I have in my stroke repertoire. I can match players who have a more complete game then me, simple by forcing them to play my game. Some of these guys are great blockers, but I rarely let them use this ability.

[Silver]

I don't feel that I fall into that category really, I have well drilled strokes considering that I have a disability that only gets noticed once it has been pointed out, I do play very tactically, and if anything slightly too conservatively (miss the chance to put the ball away sometimes)

Yeah, well you're a couple of steps above the average forum player anyway.


Interestingly enough, having had a hit with Jon a couple of weeks ago, I think you'd have a higher chance of beating him than vice versa. He's a bit of a power hitter and wasn't that accurate. Mind you, he did have a couple of months off due to uni exams and I played him immediately after that...

[big ears]

Thanks mate, the problem I have with the 'Jon' saga, I'm getting older, he's improving, he will reach a point where he stops improving though, where that level is? decides his fate when playing me, I'm consistent, what you see it what you get

[blocker]

Cause I'm sure we all have meet someone who seems to have a very good game with solid strokes, but once we get to play them, we destroy them and this is a strategic victory.

At the same time, I'm sure we all have faced opponents who looks like it should be a walk in the part, only to find that we lose in straight games, not really knowing why we lost. This is a strategic loss.

This is a very interesting topic Speedplay and one which has plenty of meat on the bone. Just a small observation which has some similarity to the saying in golf that you 'drive for show and you putt for dough'. In table tennis I suspect that a lot of weaker players who appear to have 'solid strokes' focus too much on practicing 'show' shots that you would use in a full-blown rally and neglect the earlier nut'n'bolts stuff like serve, return of serve, not pushing too much and too long, and making sure your opening topspin rarely misses. It is in these earlier stages of a rally that so many points are won and lost and yet it is frequently neglected by the players who look good but don't know how to win. On the other hand, many players have very unassuming styles but are stronger than they look because they are accomplished in this early stage of the rally. So many times have I seen players hit impressive shots in a warm up and yet get murdered in the match because they have lost the point before they can use their weapons.

I think many weaker players with attractive games fail to fully appreciate this early stage of the rally and this is why their opinion of their own game is often way out of sync with their actual results. In particular, I think such players simply don't see the importance of trying to get in at the first available opportunity and instead are happy to push around waiting for the 'right' ball. Any ball which is long is the 'right' ball!         

[speedplay]

I like your golf reference and I've often thought about this as well. You might see Tiger use driver and spoon to reach the green on 2 on a long par 5, but this is something that you don't see the regular amateur golfer do, they play shorter shot's and make it their aim to stay on the fairway and are happy to reach the green in 3 or even 4 shots. Why? Because it is suitable to their level. Now, TT player's on the other hand, they see Wang Liqin exploding on his oppening attack and despite not having his talent (and hours of practice) this is how they think it should be done, so they open up at fullforce and beat them self by missing their shots way to often. Now, why is it that golfers understands to play with in their level but not TT player's? Sure, there are golfer's who bring's out the driver despite not being able to handle it, but most golfer's seem to be aware of their capabilities and play according to them, while most TT player's seem to think that if the pro's do it, so should they.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

Speedplay you haven't seen enough amateur golf 

[Der Echte]

This is a very interesting topic Speedplay and one which has plenty of meat on the bone. Just a small observation which has some similarity to the saying in golf that you 'drive for show and you putt for dough'. In table tennis I suspect that a lot of weaker players who appear to have 'solid strokes' focus too much on practicing 'show' shots that you would use in a full-blown rally and neglect the earlier nut'n'bolts stuff like serve, return of serve, not pushing too much and too long, and making sure your opening topspin rarely misses. It is in these earlier stages of a rally that so many points are won and lost and yet it is frequently neglected by the players who look good but don't know how to win. On the other hand, many players have very unassuming styles but are stronger than they look because they are accomplished in this early stage of the rally. So many times have I seen players hit impressive shots in a warm up and yet get murdered in the match because they have lost the point before they can use their weapons.

I think many weaker players with attractive games fail to fully appreciate this early stage of the rally and this is why their opinion of their own game is often way out of sync with their actual results. In particular, I think such players simply don't see the importance of trying to get in at the first available opportunity and instead are happy to push around waiting for the 'right' ball. Any ball which is long is the 'right' ball!       

Those statements are worth a karma or two.

I can certainly say for myself, that when I quit attacking and unconciously push the first ball, I LOSE more points than my opponent.

I have seen for sure too many players fitting your description above. Their practice strokes look USATT 2000, but their game and level is several eschelons below that, more like 1400-1500. A LOT of these players do NOT improve with time as there are not in or are making themselves a situation built for improvement.

I see a lot of players with those games that look like they are not going to defeat a newbie. However, their placement, blocking, controling of options, high percentage of medium power openers, and general ability to keep the ball on the table longer trump the sexy practice strokes with ease. Some of these players take down the hotshot loopers and hitters and piss them off to no end.

[big ears]

Having watched several video of forum members (on all the forums I visit) I've reached the conclusion that most players have the strokes to move up a level or two, but they simple do not understand how to use their weapons, when to use then and what weapons to bring forward to what opponent. I've seen numerous players beating them self by trying to go for way more advanced shots then they need to.

 Ah, probably one of the best threads you have ever started Speedy, what is the difference between two players who both have accomplished strokes, yet one is better than the other, its the bit that is hard to spot on a vid clip, you only find out the gulf in standard when you play a player of this class. As a golden rule, I look at footwork/ short game and consistency when trying to judge a players standard who i have never seen before, the big loops are just the 'hammer that knocks the nail in' and as you know, a player can take another apart on sh/game alone.

[speedplay]

Yes, the short game is so important, but unfortunatelly often over-looked when people try to judge some ones level. The one who dominates the short game is the one who is most likely to get the first attack in and we all know that in high level TT, this is the guy who usually wins the point, defenders excluded.

I remember playing against a guy who's warm up strokes looked rather weak, so I thought I would have a good chance against him, as there was no way he would out-loop me.  I got destroyed as this guy didn't need to out-loop me, all he did was preventing me from attacking by playing it short and variation on the spin. This was when I realised I needed to work on a good flick/flip. I never got the chance to play my defencive game against him, cause by keeping it short, he forced me to stay close to the table and as soon as I went a little to high, he slammed it straight to my pocket and since I was close to the table, I had no time to react. I'm still sure that if he had agreed to open up the rallies, I would have beaten him fairly easy cause my "big strokes" where at least as good as his, but I never got to show it.

[JKC]

This is the reason why the warm-up is no guide to what will happen in a game. The number of times I have been hammered off by kids in the warm-up when they get the ball where they want only to muck them around in the game and really annoy them. The more they smack the ball in the warm up the more I try to annoy them in the game.

[speedplay]

Agree with what you are saying there JKC, but the warm up I was talking about wasn't the pre-match warm up between me and him, it was his warm up with his team mates. The pre-match warm up is... Well, nothing I really care about, it's all about hitting the ball back and forth a couple of times to get a feeling for the ball, table and stuff like that. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think this is when they should show their big strokes to get respect...

[JKC]

Sorry Speedplay, I wasn't really refering to your previous post, it was just a general statement on the topic.