Evaluation of your level?

[speedplay]

Nope, this isn't one of those treads were I'm going to ask you all at what level you play   It is rather about how you judge your own level.

Iknow a lot of us, including me, have stated that we have gained a levelevery now and then. Now, if we first agree what a level is, whichaccording to me is, players who can beat each other, even if it turnsout to be 2 vs 8 wins, are of the same level, while a player you neverwin against is at least a level above and a player you never lose to isat least a level below. If we agree to this, then I doubt that we haveactually gained so many levels as we might have stated, I know Ihaven't.

This brought to me the interesting question, what is itin our game that makes us feel like we have gained a level, or evenbecome any better? Is it a new weapon? Higher consistency? Betterserve? Or something else?

Looking in to my own game, I haverealised that when my offensive game develops, I feel like I'm steppingup my game a level, but I rarely feel the same when my defensive gameimproves and I don't know why?!?

Also, when I feel that I'mplaying good, I often get the feeling that I have stepped up in level,even if my results tells me that I haven't since they can be virtuallythe same as before.

Lately (this season) I haven't felt thatI've played great, my offensive game haven't felt any sharper thenusual, but despite this, I'm currently undefeated since changing toBry... Sorry, undefeated since the start of this season, whichindicates that something about my game have actually brought me up alevel but I'm not able to pinpoint what it is.

So, for those who don't enter rated events (where you will get a receipt of your level) what is it that you judge your level on?

[pingpongrob]

So that means that I'm excluded. As I enter rated Events. BTW, even though I had had a break, and missed out on a Few Tourney's at the start of the Year due to my Reco, I have gained more points than lost.

I think I could reply to your question is allowed.

[Der Echte]

Martin, you bring up a couple of interesting points that have value forlooking at yourself. Trying to see if you improved by moving up a grade is slow and not all-telling. It also takes a lot of time to see that improvement and promotion.  Even if you have a points based rating system, it goes simply on Win/Lost, which ultimately reflects where you stand, but doesn't exactly tell everything. You could improve, but not have it show up immediately as a win. Winning more points is a better indicator, especially against the same opponent(s) where you were not winning as many. Video help out. It also gives you a historical reference point to help show progress or regression. Also, the type of points you win over previous period(s) are another indicator. An example would be getting more points from killing bottomspin pushes than before or beginning to get some winners/points from a flick on a service return that you never did before.
 
As for me, improving the serve (Thanks OOAK Bogeyhunter, JKC for his vidz, B.E. for his comments and everyone else I didn't credit), sticking with the TBS (THANKX PeterC !!!), using my BH less, developing a FH topspin the wins a point or sets it up made a HUGE difference.
 
I NEVER remember EVER troubling ANYONE with my serve before last year. Now, I get outright points or quality chances to attack from my service game. The Koreans I play here all vary in level from USATT 1000 beginner to some really adavnaced players (Probably over 2500 USATT) who play in the first division. I find my serves effective with players in Div 3-5. Div 2 seems to be the cutoff where they are not any advantage to me. Before I improved some on serving, ANY of these Guys/Gals in Div 4 or 5 would have troubled or defeated me. Now, it is the other way around.
 
For me to improve another level, I reckon improving service return, continuing the attack when the first one is blocked/countered, and developing better rally skills will yield some positive progress in leveling up. Making the service game even better wouldn't hurt anything. Better footwork/positioning will be needed soon enough. Pretty soon, stuff like that will prevent me from leveling up (regardless of other improvements) unless I fix it better.

[pingpongrob]

As for me, improving the serve (Thanks OOAK Bogeyhunter, JKC for his vidz, B.E. for his comments and everyone else I didn't credit), sticking with the TBS (THANKX PeterC !!!), using my BH less, developing a FH topspin the wins a point or sets it up made a HUGE difference.

Come on Der, let us in on the secret Video. 

[Der Echte]

Secret vids? They don't exist. My youtube page is DerEchteJ and I havent posted a vid in several months. Maybe I will quit being miserly and buy a tripod before my household goods get shipped here and make some updated match vids of my sorry ass.

[speedplay]

PPRob, of course you mat reply, but not by saying that you have won more rating points

Der_Echte, some valid points, but take the back spin pushes you mention, before I can use these to see if I have improved, I also have to look at how many points do these cost me? The same with the fh-flick, cause even if these shots win me points when they are successful, they might still not make me a better player since I might give away equally many points failing to make these shots.

I have found that to many players (me included) tend to judge their level depending on their successful shots only, while in reality, we should probably look at reducing our unforced errors to get a fair estimation of our level.

Due to my knee injury and a sore shoulder, I've been forced to use my fh-loop less, and I was afraid this would make it harder for me to compete, but so far, it have actually helped making me a better player since I now play with more safety in my shots and pick my attacks better. I improved my offensive game heaps before the knee injury, but it didn't get me any better results, but now, when I have learned when to use these new skills, my game have really raised.

[big ears]

I do not have time to answer this fully (I'm just about to go away for the weekend playing County TT) but I have to say, the implication of this thread by Speedy, is the essence of why I have become over time endeared to him as a quality poster on TT forums, he just kinda hits the spot once again with a truly thought provoking thread. Huge relative implications for anyone who can see what he is saying. It actually takes some quite deep thought to come out with this question. You've probably somehow missed yr boat Speedy in terms of being an advanced player, but you show the thought proccess that would have made you one if things in your life had taken a different route. I probably know only 5/6 players/ coaches who would have come up with this question.
 
 Everyone knows my style, I like to answer a question with another question, this is in essence what Speedy is doing here.

[speedplay]

You are right Biggy, not only have my train left the station, it have also been replaced by a more modern form of transportation, that I've also missed, that is how far behind I am

But, I do believe I've been able to collect some wisdom regarding the game, and since I have no pride in my game, I'm able to see what it is that I miss to become a advanced player.  A lot of forum members are probably a heck of a lot better players then me, but since they take such pride in their game, they fail to understand what they are doing wrong.

Simple look at Boz vs Fruitloop video, it shows two good player who could easily be better if they only understood their current limitations. Numerous players in my club and regional league are in the same situation, they do have the big shots, but they make way to many unforced errors that they are unaware of. So even though their game develops and get better all the time, they don't gain in level, as they improve on the skills they already have, while they neglect working on their weaknesses.

A point pushed to the  net by your opponent is of equal value to a point you win with a monster fh-loop down the line, but we do tend to think that we have played better if we win with the fh loop. Even if we lose a game due to our own unforced errors, we think we have been the better player due to our own winners.

There is one guy in the local league who I have considered to be a player I should beat all the time, but for some reason, I haven't done it. Then I realised, it doesn't matter if I hit 9 winners in each set against him if I at the same time make 11 unforced errors. Once I realised this, I did destroy this guy, coming back from 0-2 to secure a 3-2 victory, simple by realising my limitations and the fact that I couldn't afford to give him all these cheap points.

So, Biggy, thanks for you support to my ideas, really wish we could meet up, as that might actually bring me closer to the leaving train

[pingpongrob]

Suck, Suck, Suck  . What you say speedplay is not exactly correct. Although its true get to 11 first and your the winner (of course 2 points ahead). Look at the greatest player ever, and see how he keeps the balls on the table. He block so well. (If I recall Bigears does this to some extent).

If you are on the improve you have to go for new shots in, and when your learning you have to put these new unreliable shots into the actual playing game. You can practice as much as you want, ,but its in real life playing matches that you can see how these shot pan out under pressure. Of course the Better players make these pressure shots look easy.

The way I Judge my level of improvement is not Via the Points System, although this is what gets you into state teams & Seeded for Tournaments. But from my consistency with shots that I had trouble before. The Movement of my feet (we all know the reason for this & it plays a huge part), My Mindframe - do I stay calm under pressure points. And the last but not least, how my oppenants have trouble beating me or how much trouble I give them.

[speedplay]

Rob, what is it in my post that isn't correct? I never said that you shouldn't go for your shots, I said that you should understand when to go for them and when not to.

As a defender, I'm forced to attack some, and even if I miss my attacks, I'm still winning points from my misses in the long run, cause it puts pressure on my opponent to actually attack and taking bigger risks, cause otherwise I will attack him. If I was defending all the time, my opponent could always play it safe, thus missing less shots and make it harder for me to earn points.

The way I see it, there are two great ways of looking in to your level, the availability of different shots to use, with good consistency, and the amount of time you have to use them. If you are facing a deep push to your bh corner, how many different returns can you make and know that you can land them? a 50/50 bh-loop down the line isn't a shot that "you can make" since you miss to many, I'm talking about shots that will land safely. Can you block it, push it back long, return it with a short drop or are your feet fast enough to step around it and use your fh? The more shots you can pick from, the better you are. Then of course, we come in to picking the right shot from all of these shots, but that is a different question.

The next thing to use to evaluate your level is time. How much time do you have to play your shot? A lot about the game is about time, gaining time for your self and steal it away from your opponents. Lately, I have noticed that against some opponents, I always used to rush my shots, since I didn't have enough time to make them they way I wanted. Now, I have found that I have more time to hit my shots, while they have begun to make more unforced errors, obviously because I somehow have begun to steal time away from them.

I find that to many of us relates our level to the winners we hit, but forget about everything else in the game, so even though our winners become better and better, we might not actually gain in level.

[pingpongrob]

Simple look at Boz vs Fruitloop video, it shows two good player who could easily be better if they only understood their current limitations. Numerous players in my club and regional league are in the same situation, they do have the big shots, but they make way to many unforced errors that they are unaware of.

I was trying to read between the lines, but obviously failed dismally.

I find that to many of us relates our level to the winners we hit, but forget about everything else in the game, so even though our winners become better and better, we might not actually gain in level.

If we are hitting winners now, but before they were losing shots, then it must show an improve on levels.

I probably know only 5/6 players/ coaches who would have come up with this question.
 
 Everyone knows my style, I like to answer a question with another question, this is in essence what Speedy is doing here.

Yes Biggy apart from the SUCK, SUCK SUCK - I feel that Speedplay has a very good understanding of the game and its finer points that very few know about.

[Der Echte]

I think my level has gone up a lot in the last few months as I have played more TT and trained more in that time than in the entire 3-4 years I started to like TT. I used to play maybe once a week and here can play nearly everyday for at least a few hours. I have no way to statisically measure it right now though. We all start everyone giggling with Sid like posts saying we are USATT XXXX or whatever when our rating is significantly lower. Still, posting vids is one way to build a record of history and vids give at least some indicators.

[RebornTTEvnglist]

The way I Judge my level of improvement is not Via the Points System, although this is what gets you into state teams & Seeded for Tournaments. But from my consistency with shots that I had trouble before. The Movement of my feet (we all know the reason for this & it plays a huge part), My Mindframe - do I stay calm under pressure points. And the last but not least, how my oppenants have trouble beating me or how much trouble I give them.

I would judge in much the same way Rob. Tends to be when your level really improves it has somewhat of a snowball effect. Opponents recognise what used to make you crumble no longer does, your own confidence keeps you in the rally more and the opponents finds themselves under more pressure. And when your body is responding to confidence shots work better. When you're out of rhythm the ball goes into the net or long, when you're in rhythm shots go on more and its easier to shrug off the ones that don't. Not sure if reflexes also work better or if its just that you give yourself more time from better thinking and anticipation and movement. Whatever it is, when your game improves, things just come together better.

[Honey]

I judge my level on my bottom game. The game I play when I'm uncomfortable and playing below par. Obviously this will still dip from time to time. Recently I lost a game I'd class as below my level, mainly because I was feeling ill. TT level is so hard to evaluate as at local level it really can be just how well you play on the day. The higher you can raise your game, the more realistic a level you will be able to judge.

There are lots of positives/negatives to doing this. I can be under confident at times (negative) and sometimes don't go for enough big shots, but I am a firm believer in having a modest game. This doesn't work for everyone, some people thrive on over-confidence.

I can't say I care for 'new weapons' or whizzy shots, I'm much more focused on trying to play what I've been taught as a proper game. I know this will be better long-term, and it certainly has been so far.

[speedplay]

I can't say I care for 'new weapons' or whizzy shots, I'm much more focused on trying to play what I've been taught as a proper game. I know this will be better long-term, and it certainly has been so far.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting new weapons as a new way of hitting the fh-loop, but rather having a new serve, or perhaps going from having a decent bh to having a good bh, thus making it a new weapon to use. Unorthodox styles rarely brings us forwards, all though once they do, they tend to move us forward big time, like the one who first used rubber on his blade, the one who first used sponge, speed glue and stuff like that. Don't forget, not to long ago an expert suggested that we shouldn't even try to loop from the bh, cause that was simple to hard to do, and the serve was simple there to put the ball in play. Now, if every one who played the game since then shared your thoughts and decided to stick to what they had been taught as the proper game, the game might have looked very different today.

[big ears]

Just as I though, its impossible to join in this thread without looking at yourself honestly, so there are no stupid answers, or right or wrong answers, that's why I think the topic is brilliant.

[blue_smartie68]

Certainly an interesting thread guys 
I base my level purely on factual evidence. When I first moved to this area and started playing in the local comp, I was a bottom 1/3rd A grader and after the first season or two. I could sort all the players in that grade into 3 groups....better/worse/similar to myself, based on actual results. The "better" group was certainly the largest!
Since then, I've gradually moved up through the ranks to now be in the top 3 or 4 players and with only one who is clearly in the "better" category. Players who used to beat me comfortably now rarely do at all and players who were a similar standard and always presented real problems are now easy beats where I actually practice my weaker shots against.
So over 5 or 6 years, I have definitely gone up some levels....and that's assuming that everyone else in the comp has stayed at exactly the same level. If they have all improved during that time too, then my improvement has been even more substantial!
That's the difficult thing as to judging improvement.....to be perfectly accurate, you really need a benchmark that stays exactly at the same level which in reality, doesn't always happen.. I suppose some deteriorate, but most improve.
My biggest problem is the thinking side of the game... and I know I can make some major improvements with lots more concentration. Possibly one of the reasons I have forged ahead of my local competition is that I eventually became comfortable with all their playing styles and know how to hit against each of them. It seems to take me ages to work out how to play new players...and that presents problems at tournaments and when I play in different comps 
Cheers,
Chris
 

[pingpongrob]

It seems to take me ages to work out how to play new players...and that presents problems at tournaments and when I play in different comps 
Cheers,
Chris

Yes Chris, I think Bigears will agree with this one, Experience will eventually help you with this problem. Some players are able to do this quickly, yet other (myself) do struggle. I think that now with my better understanding of the game (playing Pimple players helped so much) I work players out much easier.

Bigears being a coach, might be able to help us with some pointers.

[Silver]

I reckon I have severe level fluctuation issues, not really sure what it's based on. Say my median is 1500, on a good day I can play up to 2000. Everything just goes on and I correctly predict what the opponent is going to do well in advance, accuracy goes through the roof and I nail white lines all over the table. Then other days (like last week in fact) my level drops to below 1000. Loops don't go on, zone out and can't read the spin, depth of perception disappears and I loop air a foot away from the ball, etc.


Appears to be completely independent of the opponent. Mood doesn't really have that much to do with it. I'm thinking it's mostly mental  alertness or whatever...

[pingpongrob]

I reckon I have severe level fluctuation issues, not really sure what it's based on. Say my median is 1500, on a good day I can play up to 2000. Everything just goes on and I correctly predict what the opponent is going to do well in advance, accuracy goes through the roof and I nail white lines all over the table. Then other days (like last week in fact) my level drops to below 1000. Loops don't go on, zone out and can't read the spin, depth of perception disappears and I loop air a foot away from the ball, etc.


Appears to be completely independent of the opponent. Mood doesn't really have that much to do with it. I'm thinking it's mostly mental  alertness or whatever...

Know how you feel mate  - It does get better as you get better. Maybe work has something to do with it - Mental Fatigue

[big ears]

Yes Chris, I think Bigears will agree with this one, Experience will eventually help you with this problem. Some players are able to do this quickly, yet other (myself) do struggle. I think that now with my better understanding of the game (playing Pimple players helped so much) I work players out much easier.

Bigears being a coach, might be able to help us with some pointers.

 I sure can help with this one, its so common. Players get so used to playing locals from their club/town/ area that when presented with a new challenge just do not know what to do, and often play awful. The obvious simple answer is to do what I did some 15 yrs ago, and get out of your local situation by playing more nationally based competitions, though I guess that is not so easy in Australia.
The other way around it is to become really proficient at the simple parts of your game such as service and third ball, and by third ball I don't mean necessarily outright winners, just good quality heavy topspin or/and placement, in otherwords you are playing YOUR game and not reacting to someone elses, something we all do well when playing players we are familliar with.

[blue_smartie68]

Thanks heaps Biggie, it's good to hear you say that! 
The two things I am trying to do is play in other comps (this is the main reason I drive nearly 3 hours to play in the Sunbury comp each week), and try very hard to make my opponents play my game rather than theirs!
Playing different styles to what I'm used too is sure expanding my experience and is really pushing me to concentrate and watch how the ball comes to me and with what spins. I have always been very very lazy in playing the thinking game....to the extent that sometimes I didn't even realise I was playing a left hander until after the game!!!!   How's that for not concentrating!!??
In my local comp, I have only lost 2 games from over 20.... In Sunbury I'm running at just below 50% and loving the experience although do feel a bit "lost in the sauce" (to use a Der-ism) at times. Hopefully I'll forge ahead there with more concentration and awareness :)
Cheers,
Chris

[speedplay]

If we are hitting winners now, but before they were losing shots, then it must show an improve on levels.

Could be true, but not necessarily. Cause, if you didn't have this stroke before, then hopefully, you knew about it and didn't play it. Now, you have this stroke, but it might not be 100% accurate, so say you land only 75% of these shots. Then you give away 25% on your own missed shots. Out of the 75% you land, not all may be straight out winners, say you win 2/3 of the rallies were you manage to make this shot. The result is, this shot actually only gives you a 50/50 result, thus not improving your level at all, but it might make you feel like it. Before you had this shot, you might have been playing a pushing game where you won 60%, so instead of gaining in level, you might actually drop in level, with out realising why, cause you haven't analysed the game enough.

Obviously, this is all speculation and if you do want to become better, you have to hit these shots every now and then to improve on the consistency with them, but unless you actually know when to play them, they might not make you a better player.

[big ears]

Could be true, but not necessarily. Cause, if you didn't have this stroke before, then hopefully, you knew about it and didn't play it. Now, you have this stroke, but it might not be 100% accurate, so say you land only 75% of these shots. Then you give away 25% on your own missed shots. Out of the 75% you land, not all may be straight out winners, say you win 2/3 of the rallies were you manage to make this shot. The result is, this shot actually only gives you a 50/50 result, thus not improving your level at all, but it might make you feel like it. Before you had this shot, you might have been playing a pushing game where you won 60%, so instead of gaining in level, you might actually drop in level, with out realising why, cause you haven't analysed the game enough.

Another quite brilliant analalysis, which illustrates perfectly how experience can defeat superior technique.