Basic strategy against:

[speedplay]

I'm thinking about making this a small series of basic strategy against different styles, where we all share our opinion about how the different styles should be dealt with.

So, first out is, how to handle a two winged looper, inverted both sides. The player spins up his first loop and then flat hits for the kill.

Now, how would you deal with this player, equally strong from both wings?

[big ears]

Try to stop him looping by flicking and touching short, combined with short serves, and try to get my loop in first. this follows the pattern of 80% of players that I play thesedays.

[speedplay]

I forgot to add, take your own style in to consideration here. Now, we all know that Biggy is a two winged looper as well, so his main objective is to get the first attack in. As a defender, I might feel slightly different ;)

As I know that a two winged looper is more likely to find a good opening then me, then there is no point for me to struggle to get it, it is better to give up this advantage, but to do it on my own terms. I would probably try to push long, aiming for playing elbow/stomach with a good amount of backspin for the first push. If he loops, I would try to chop with variation both in spin and placement, but focus on changing the spin so he never gets in the comfort zone. If he makes a safety loop, I would look for the opportunity to counter. One thing I would do the same as Biggy is that I would try to keep my serves short, cause serving long all the time simple gives a to big advantage for a skilled attacker.

[Der Echte]

I'd go against the grain and say give him a dose of his own medicine when it is your serve. Do something to achieve a little misread. You could get something long or just high enough if you disguised it even marginally well, then punish/slow loop or flipkill the return. A looper HATES getting looped on first and getting dominated on serve.

[Peter C]

Big ears has given the best advice so far, regarding playing a good two winged looper.

[speedplay]

Big ears has given the best advice so far, regarding playing a good two winged looper.

Luckily for all of us, this wasn't a competition, it was for every one to share how they would deal with this type of player. We are all from different standards and we all play our own game and believe me when I say, if I was to try Big Ears tactic, it would be suicidal for me. At the same time, I'm sure Biggy wouldn't like to face him with my suggested style.

@Der_Echte, not sure why you think you are going against the grain, cause you are basically suggesting the same thing as Biggy, trying to get the first loop in. Your method might not be as refined as Biggy's, but this is probably due to level, cause at your (and mine!) level the serve trick works, but it might not pay off as well at Biggy's level.

[big ears]

I actually thought the same thing Speedy, Der was actually stating the same thing, maybe looking at it from a different angle.

[pingpongrob]

Try to stop him looping by flicking and touching short, combined with short serves, and try to get my loop in first. this follows the pattern of 80% of players that I play thesedays.

Good advice, but the right equipment is necassary to do this. A fast blade like the one I used to use makes it difficult to achieve any of the advise you have Given Wiggs. I come up against these players sometimes, and they give me lots of trouble. They generally have Sriver, Mark V or some slowish Chinese rubbers that has lots of Dwell time associated with it. I find them very hard to play, They are the sort of player that is hard to blast through - they block very well, and wait for you to play long, so they can open up with that 1st spinny loop (not to Fast), then basically loop drive the next one past you.
My advise is - slow the blade down, select a hardish sponge rubber, and position the ball in such a way that he cant take an opening swing, at least not a good one. If you look back at some of the Video's between Supachop and myself, you will see that he does this all the time. 

[Der Echte]

You all are correct in saying I make the comments for someone near my level or a level or two higher. the good and consistant loopers are USATT 1900 and above. They wouldn't be around my level, because they are consistant. An inconsistant looper won't make it much past USATT 1700. You are also correct in saying B.E. has the best advice for anyone inthis thread.

Someone at my level does not have the touch to keep everything short on the other (USATT 1900 consisant 2 winged looper) guy's serve. Maybe some OK placement or some unexpected fast push from something that looks like a short push can get a couple errors or make a small hesitation to get one or two chances a game to go on the offensive, but a player at my level doesn't have the touch and control to contain an advanced player on his serve very much. The best I could hope is to have him open somewhere I have a chance to expect and block wide, then play the ralley the best I can. Not much chance there of dominating. But, it is different on the serve. There is at least some chance of taking the initiative. I would need a better short game, flicking, and ability to read the serve before I could make much use of half the good advice B.E had said. trying to take it to the opponent on the serve and 3rd ball is the only chance to make much of a dent agianst that 1900ish consistant looping crowd. I went up 2-1 on a 1850 looper doing pretty much that, but the 2-3 loss was justified - I didn't have the control to keep him in check the whole match.

[speedplay]

@Rob, even if I understand the importance of having right equipment, I hardly see it as a way of beating certain styles, so having the right equipment is always necessary to play good.

@Der_Echte, no, you are actually dead wrong, Biggy's advice aren't the best, because:

A: It isn't a competition about the best advice

B: It depends a lot on your own style of play, if you are a defender, the tactic he suggested won't do you much good.

C: Read point A again as I believe I've stated this before!

@Biggy, I know you don't get this the wrong way, I've got nothing against your tactic, in fact, you are the only one who have managed to answer the question, from your own point of view, up to this post. This is not a search for the right way to play, this is a search for different ways to play and all depending on your own style!

[pingpongrob]

@Rob, even if I understand the importance of having right equipment, I hardly see it as a way of beating certain styles, so having the right equipment is always necessary to play good.

 :-\, I've had the wrong equipment for a long time yet still managed to play good. What I was trying to say, was that to achieve certain sections of this game, a Slowish blade is better. We cant tell people to play short, if they are using a Butterfly Primorac Carbon, with Bryce - now can we.

[speedplay]

@Rob, even if I understand the importance of having right equipment, I hardly see it as a way of beating certain styles, so having the right equipment is always necessary to play good.

 :-\, I've had the wrong equipment for a long time yet still managed to play good. What I was trying to say, was that to achieve certain sections of this game, a Slowish blade is better. We cant tell people to play short, if they are using a Butterfly Primorac Carbon, with Bryce - now can we.

On statement A, I have to say, it is a bout definition. You might think you have played good, but the question you have to ask your self here is, then why did you change equipment? Did it make you better? If yes, then no, you didn't play good before cause you weren't playing to your potential.

Now, on the second part, why the hell not? Nut sure which blade Schlager uses, but rumours had it he played with glued up (not like you and me, but really heavy) Bryce in the good old days and I think his short game was/is better then yours, mine and even Biggy's.

So, the thing is, right equipment is always essential, but regardless of equipment, you can't play above your level.

Now, for the last time, share how you would play against this style, rather then saying who's made the best advice or what equipment you should use to face this style!

[big ears]

Try to stop him looping by flicking and touching short, combined with short serves, and try to get my loop in first. this follows the pattern of 80% of players that I play thesedays.

 Quality players (and I play many international standard players regularly) can easily do all of the above whatever they play with.

[pingpongrob]

@Rob, even if I understand the importance of having right equipment, I hardly see it as a way of beating certain styles, so having the right equipment is always necessary to play good.

 :-\, I've had the wrong equipment for a long time yet still managed to play good. What I was trying to say, was that to achieve certain sections of this game, a Slowish blade is better. We cant tell people to play short, if they are using a Butterfly Primorac Carbon, with Bryce - now can we.

On statement A, I have to say, it is a bout definition. You might think you have played good, but the question you have to ask your self here is, then why did you change equipment? Did it make you better? If yes, then no, you didn't play good before cause you weren't playing to your potential.

Now, on the second part, why the hell not? Nut sure which blade Schlager uses, but rumours had it he played with glued up (not like you and me, but really heavy) Bryce in the good old days and I think his short game was/is better then yours, mine and even Biggy's.

So, the thing is, right equipment is always essential, but regardless of equipment, you can't play above your level.

Now, for the last time, share how you would play against this style, rather then saying who's made the best advice or what equipment you should use to face this style!

First of all Speedplay, how can you say I didnt play good cause I changed equipment. - Do you think that maybe as my game develops, my equipment develops as well. I use the right equipment for my standard and style of play at the time. To say I played bad, cause I changed equipment is total and absolute insane.

Now when we are talking about basic stratagy, we must exclude the GODS of Table Tennis, and Schlager is one of them. He could play a short ball with a grenade strapped to his rubber. I am talking about C, D, E & F Grade players (of course I fit into these levels, as would most of us in this and Many other Forums around the world). I see lower level players that use way to fast equipment, and cannot possibly play a short game if they tried.

Now for my stratagy, I would try and play short balls positioned as close to the centre net as possible, waiting to flick my next ball into his body which of course is very hard to do, cause the flick should always go to the longest part of the table, and that would be where it is easyiest to counter or spin up. Although a resonably fast ball is hard to spin up, so a good player would then counter it. Now if my oppenant was the first to open up, cause my ball was a little long, then my only option then would be to step back, cause the ball that is spun up is hard to handle, and I would prefer to allow some spin to wear off before I made an attempt to get into a topspin rally. (here I go again). The new softish sponge tensors are very hard to smash accurately, so the spun up slow ball is hard to smash unless you are Schlager of course.

These strageties all depend on the equipment you use, imagine using long pips and trying the above. How about anti. You see speedplay it all depends on what you are using.

[speedplay]

@Rob, even if I understand the importance of having right equipment, I hardly see it as a way of beating certain styles, so having the right equipment is always necessary to play good.

I've had the wrong equipment for a long time
 :-\,yet still managed to play good. What I was trying to say, was that to achieve certain sections of this game, a Slowish blade is better. We cant tell people to play short, if they are using a Butterfly Primorac Carbon, with Bryce - now can we.

On statement A, I have to say, it is a bout definition. You might think you have played good, but the question you have to ask your self here is, then why did you change equipment? Did it make you better? If yes, then no, you didn't play good before cause you weren't playing to your potential.

Now, on the second part, why the hell not? Nut sure which blade Schlager uses, but rumours had it he played with glued up (not like you and me, but really heavy) Bryce in the good old days and I think his short game was/is better then yours, mine and even Biggy's.

So, the thing is, right equipment is always essential, but regardless of equipment, you can't play above your level.

Now, for the last time, share how you would play against this style, rather then saying who's made the best advice or what equipment you should use to face this style!

First of all Speedplay, how can you say I didnt play good cause I changed equipment. - Do you think that maybe as my game develops, my equipment develops as well.  I use the right equipment for my standard and style of play at the time.To say I played bad, cause I changed equipment is total and absolute insane.

Now when we are talking about basic stratagy, we must exclude the GODS of Table Tennis, and Schlager is one of them. He could play a short ball with a grenade strapped to his rubber. I am talking about C, D, E & F Grade players (of course I fit into these levels, as would most of us in this and Many other Forums around the world). I see lower level players that use way to fast equipment, and cannot possibly play a short game if they tried.

Now for my stratagy, I would try and play short balls positioned as close to the centre net as possible, waiting to flick my next ball into his body which of course is very hard to do, cause the flick should always go to the longest part of the table, and that would be where it is easyiest to counter or spin up. Although a resonably fast ball is hard to spin up, so a good player would then counter it. Now if my oppenant was the first to open up, cause my ball was a little long, then my only option then would be to step back, cause the ball that is spun up is hard to handle, and I would prefer to allow some spin to wear off before I made an attempt to get into a topspin rally. (here I go again). The new softish sponge tensors are very hard to smash accurately, so the spun up slow ball is hard to smash unless you are Schlager of course.

These strageties all depend on the equipment you use, imagine using long pips and trying the above. How about anti. You see speedplay it all depends on what you are using.

Now, who said what? You said you used the wrong equipment, now all of a sudden you say you used the right equipment but changed because your game developed? The entire question here was how YOU would handle a player like the one described, regardless of your own level. Off course equipment then plays a roll, but mostly so, style, cause as a LP/Anti player, I would never play the style you suggest, cause then I would have picked the wrong equipment.

How ever, I've finally got an answer from you, all though you couldn't leave equipment out of it. Makes me wonder, if you, in the middle of a rally, get a high ball to put away, pause time and change your equipment and then restore play again? Our equipment should reflect our own style, not trying to adjust it for our opponents style. At least, this is how I see it.

[Der Echte]

I could see Speedplay starring in an internet clip spoofing a popular movie series and named the "The TT Matrix" doing exactly that. It would get way better ratings than "Ping Pong Playa" or "Balls of Fury" for sure.

[pingpongrob]

I could see Speedplay starring in an internet clip spoofing a popular movie series and named the "The TT Matrix" doing exactly that. It would get way better ratings than "Ping Pong Playa" or "Balls of Fury" for sure.

You beat me to it Der, I was going to say the same thing.

Now, who said what? You said you used the wrong equipment, now all of a sudden you say you used the right equipment but changed because your game developed? The entire question here was how YOU would handle a player like the one described, regardless of your own level. Off course equipment then plays a roll, but mostly so, style, cause as a LP/Anti player, I would never play the style you suggest, cause then I would have picked the wrong equipment.

I'm thinking about making this a small series of basic strategy against different styles, where we all share our opinion about how the different styles should be dealt with.

So, first out is, how to handle a two winged looper, inverted both sides. The player spins up his first loop and then flat hits for the kill.

Now, how would you deal with this player, equally strong from both wings?

So is that what you wrote - cant see anything in your opening statement about ignoring our own level.

But lets say I was the GOD of Table Tennis (thats what your asking  :)), As soon as he flat hit the ball for a supposed winner, I would already be anticipating the shot, and block it to the far corner out of his reach. Know youv'e got all of us confused Speedplay. :P

Tell your lovely wife, that the beaches are glories down here in Australia, and that you will buy her a big Diamond ring if she lets you come to Australia. I promise Accomidation will be Free.

[speedplay]

Well, the question was how You would handle him, regardless of your own level,  but to me, this is the same as your level comes in to play, since it is you who should handle him. The regardless thing is meant to be about the fact that a lot of players are trying to give pro advice since it sound better.

Jeez, this was hard to explain so it makes sense!

[speedplay]

Part two in this little series,

You are up to play against a LP/Anti blocker. The guy stays close to the table, covers most of the table with his LP/Anti and blocks it back. Is able to hit with his fh, but is not likely to open up the rallies. Can hit with the LP/Anti but is more likely to block it.

How do you play him, from your own level and style?

[speedplay]

I've faced a coiuple of players like this and once I found out how to play them, I'm really confident against them, here is what I do:

I serve long, either no spin or back spin against their bh (LP/pips) then use my own anti to push with as little spin as possible to their bh. Then, instead of a push, I make a lift deep to their bh corner, step around and wait for the opportunity to hit my fh to their fh corner. At my level, this strategy eats up the blockers in no time.

The reason I prefer to push to their "strong" side is because then I can predict the game, if I push to their fh, sometimes they will block chicken wing and sometimes they will use the regular inverted, this is avoided by feeding them balls to their pips. Then, when I attack their fh side, they have often became comfortable at the bh corner and won't move very well to reach the ball and if they do, the haven't warmed up their chicken wing, so it will be an inverted block that comes back, which makes it easier for me to follow up on the offensive shot.

[Der Echte]

To setup an attack, I like to hit weak topspin deep to the BH side. Hopefully, they are too close to the table to do much else but tap it back long with light bottomspin. This lets me open up a powerloop down the FH side. The rest goes like Speedplay sez. That doesn't always happen and the ones with good touch will play havoc with anticipating that kind of attacking chance. Not every LP operator works the same. Sometimes I come accross one who uses the inverted or SP for most stuff to the FH side. if I can get them to push or block, I am set for takeoff. Otherwise, i got to tap it around with them to get my ball I want. bad thing is, the longer you tap around, the higher chance these guyz got to win the point as they are way better at keeping it low and on the table in this kind of rally. It usually isn't a pretty match I play agaisnt the LP crowd.

[big ears]

Basically guys, and I'm really sorry to poo poo this, It comes down to standards. The looper of a higher standard will always  (in general) overcome the blocker/flat hitter/ combination player of a lesser level, the Blocker, Chopper, flat hitter/ combination guy will always dominate the lesser looper there is of course a massive crosover/ grey area in this. But lets be realistic..

[speedplay]

We know that Biggy, the same could be said for every style, don't you think? That is why these questions are all to be considered how you would play against a player of a certain style, but with in your own level. I know for sure that even if my tatctic works great at my own level, if I were to face a guy like Neubauer him self, he would eat me alive, regardless of what tactic I used.

So, it's not about beating world class players of this style, nor is it about beating basement player with this style, it is about beating players of a similar level. Obviously, we don't always succeed with this (cause then we would be at a higher level) but we still try to form a good tactic against them, right?

[Vinnie]

Does two wing looper mean that they can loop good with both their forehand and backhand?

[pingpongrob]

Does two wing looper mean that they can loop good with both their forehand and backhand?

Yes Vincent - Thats exactly what it means.
Thats why this question is pretty pointless, as how many players at your level would be "2 winged loopers"

[Vinnie]

Not many at my level would be, but this question isn't referring to people at my level is it?

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up about what a 2 winged looper is.

[Vinnie]

Part two in this little series,

You are up to play against a LP/Anti blocker. The guy stays close to the table, covers most of the table with his LP/Anti and blocks it back. Is able to hit with his fh, but is not likely to open up the rallies. Can hit with the LP/Anti but is more likely to block it.

How do you play him, from your own level and style?

Speedplay, you should make separate topics I think. Otherwise it gets confusing.

[pingpongrob]

Part two in this little series,

You are up to play against a LP/Anti blocker. The guy stays close to the table, covers most of the table with his LP/Anti and blocks it back. Is able to hit with his fh, but is not likely to open up the rallies. Can hit with the LP/Anti but is more likely to block it.

How do you play him, from your own level and style?

Well Guess what, last Sunday I played Case (Reb knows Him), He plays exactly like the style you mentioned Speedplay. Although I thought I would lose, I played my Game:

Being a 2 winged looper, I looped every ball back. He tried to force the error out of me, by playing to my backhand (Big Mistake). Just about every ball I looped was then blocked or hit of the table. I tried to be aware of his hit on the forhand side, which I reblocked or counter hit to get back into the rally. The final Score was 3-0. Long live the loop  8)

[speedplay]

That sounds good Rob, but to be fair, if you can outloop a close to the table blocker, then I would think you are at least a level above him. When I used this style, I could often beat players (loopers) who were a level above me, not the other way around.

Now about the two winged loopers, they are not really common at the beginners level, but I play against such players on a regular bases, so I don't think the question is useless. Vincent, try to think of it as players who loops from both wings, almost as good or bad from both sides.

[pingpongrob]

That sounds good Rob, but to be fair, if you can outloop a close to the table blocker, then I would think you are at least a level above him. When I used this style, I could often beat players (loopers) who were a level above me, not the other way around. 

the useless comment was for the original thread- Sorry I missed the second part when I made the post.
Now please tell us why your not at the same level as the 2 winged loopers you beat. And if you can beat a 2 winged looper, who do you lose to.  :-[